Friday, May 27, 2011

The Latter Day Saints and Interreligious Dialogue

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqudsAr2ny8

5/27/2011 10:54 am (et) pparrissr: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 10:54 am (et).
5/27/2011 11:40 am (et) Lance Walker: logs in on 5/27/2011 11:40 am (et).
5/27/2011 11:45 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 11:45 am (et).
5/27/2011 11:45 am (et) Mary: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 11:45 am (et).
5/27/2011 11:52 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 11:52 am (et).
5/27/2011 11:53 am (et) Hengist: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 11:53 am (et).
5/27/2011 11:55 am (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 11:55 am (et).
5/27/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
5/27/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘The Latter Day Saints and Interreligious Dialogue’ with LDS member of IFC’s Board, Lance Walker. For more information, you can visit newsroom.lds.org or mormon.org. The LDS Church is also on Twitter and Facebook.
5/27/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
5/27/2011 12:01 pm (et) clarkifc: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 12:01 pm (et).
5/27/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it leads to some issues.
5/27/2011 12:06 pm (et) jdiggs: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 12:06 pm (et).
5/27/2011 12:07 pm (et) Moderator: Hi Lance, as moderator I have some inside knowledge of IFC, so this week I will break my silence and ask a question. The LDS Church is listed as a distinct faith community in IFC, can you tell us why that is.
5/27/2011 12:07 pm (et) Lance Walker: Sure. First, a quick disclaimer. I'm speaking as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not as a spokesman nor as an ecclesiastical leader.
5/27/2011 12:09 pm (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: THANKS for sharing these opening comments, Lance. Its so helpful to have the LDS insights into relationships with other people!
5/27/2011 12:09 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Moderator: by the same token, why is the Catholic church a distinct faith community? Why not just put all Christian groups together under one umbrella? (I think my question answers your question: some Christian churches are just more different from others)
5/27/2011 12:10 pm (et) Moderator: Yes, I must agree, but I guess growing up Catholic (and in the South) it has always been Catholic and every other Christian group.
5/27/2011 12:10 pm (et) Lance Walker: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("the Church" for purposes of brevity) does not stem from either the Catholic or Protestant tradition but is a Christian faith. The church is a restored church.
5/27/2011 12:11 pm (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: Lance, please give some examples, locally, nationally and internationally of the Church's dialogue and collaboration with persons of other faiths.
5/27/2011 12:12 pm (et) jdiggs: private message to Moderator: logs off on 5/27/2011 12:12 pm (et).
5/27/2011 12:12 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Being a 'restored' church suggests that there is something wrong with the other Christian churches. How can a church that claims to be the 'restored church of Christ' enter into respectful dialogue with other Christians?
5/27/2011 12:12 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And what exactly do we mean by restored?
5/27/2011 12:14 pm (et) Lance Walker: The Church values dialogue and partnership at all levels. Francis Cardial George recently spoke to a group of about 20,000 students on the campus of BYU, a Church university. We also partner with other faiths on humanitarian projects, Islamic Relief is one such frequent collaborator.
5/27/2011 12:14 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I mean if we are talking about thinking having the most truth while others are mistaken, aren't we all like that to some extent otherwise we would not subscribe to a specific religion?
5/27/2011 12:14 pm (et) Lance Walker: I'll type as fast as I can and get back to the restoration question.
5/27/2011 12:16 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: What is is about LDS that causes other Christians to insist that LDS is not Christian and how do you, as an LDS, defend your faith as being Christian? What is the LDS church doing to be seen by other Christians as Christian rather than as some sort of heretical sect or cult?
5/27/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: I would like to point out that at different periods in history, people within Christianity felt the need for a change, which was often expressed as a
restoration of an essential connection with the Divine, which, according to some, had become
frayed. Very often such groups had influence beyond their membership, by raising questions for the Christian community as a whole. This has also occurred with encounters with faith groups external to Christianity, of course.

5/27/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: 'Restoration', 'reformation' - differnent term, same idea
5/27/2011 12:18 pm (et) Lance Walker: We believe that after the life of Christ, the Apostles and disciples earnestly sought to preserve the Church. Through persecution, martrydom, dispersion of people, etc., however, the leadership and authority of the Church was eventually lost. See 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. Therefore, we maintain that the authority and structure of the Church was in need of restoration and that this Church led by prophets and apostles.
5/27/2011 12:20 pm (et) Lance Walker: As I cite scripture, I realize that others may read them differently. . . With regard to the need for a restitution or restoration, see Acts 3:19-22.
5/27/2011 12:20 pm (et) Lance Walker: As for the question of who is and who is not Christian. . . .
5/27/2011 12:21 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes, it seems to all be very similar, then what makes the LDS I guess more prone to 'rub you the wrong way' Laura?
5/27/2011 12:21 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: At least in terms of a 'restored' Church
5/27/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Although I do think your question has essential importance. How do we relate to others when we believe they are mistaken? Is that true respect?
5/27/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: what 'rubs me the wrong way' is the implication that by claiming to be 'restored' or to somehow have more of the truth than other churches, the others are somehow being slighted (this sort of exclusivism is a pet peeve of mine, no matter what religion claims it)
5/27/2011 12:24 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ah, I understand, I probably should have picked up on the broader implications when we mentioned Catholicism, but internet talk isn't always the best when it comes to nuance...
5/27/2011 12:25 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: However, bringing up exclusivism, the main component of that would seem to deal with issues of salvation...so what is the LDS answer for what happens to non-Church members after death?
5/27/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I'm not LDS but, from what I know about what they teach about salvation, I think they offer more for non-members than other Christian churches do (three levels of heaven)
5/27/2011 12:27 pm (et) Lance Walker: Christ is the center of our worship and devotion. We regard him as our Savior, Redeemer, and means of salvation. While acknowledging our stated convictions, others in the Christian community see our divergence from the Nicene Creed's definition of the Trinity as putting us outside the definition of a Christian. We worship God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. We seem them One in purpose and in perfect union in that sense. However, we also believe they are individual beings. Again--One in purpose and unity. Much the same way that we humans can be close to each other and consider our selves on in purpose. We look to John chapter 17 and note that Christ is praying to his Father and pleads for unity between him and his disciples in the same way that the Father and Son are one.
5/27/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: To be fair, it is very hard to claim any sense of a unique mission to the world without claiming to be different in some crucial way. So some claim to have a new expression or a new understanding of God, and wish to share with people who are otherwise, entirely equivalent. How can I not claim to be right (in some areas, at least without losing any claim to be talking at all. The key, I think is to recognize that people outside one's own
group have unique contributions to make as well, setting up dialogue rather than a monologue.

5/27/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I would personally agree that any faith that regards Jesus as the Christ and savior is, by definition, Christian. Other doctrine aside.
5/27/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: Mary said: Lance, you mentioned that there have been some misunderstandings about LDS in the past, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on how that 'rocky' past has shaped the church today.
5/27/2011 12:31 pm (et) Lance Walker: Laura - you are at the crux of an important question. As I stated in the introductory video, we believe everyone should worship according to her/his/their own conscience. We do believe that with the restoration, truths once lost were revealed again. We simply invite others to keep all the good and true principles they have and invite them to see if we can add a little more. The conclusions are up to each individual.
5/27/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: and how have those misunderstandings been clarified?
5/27/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: and how can we continue to clarify them?
5/27/2011 12:33 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: The NIcene Creed along with other such official statements, were an attempt to establish a more exact definition of 'Christian', which had the
effect of excluding large numbers of people at the time.

5/27/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Hengist: true. I recall a discussion about that (re the Nicene creed) in a course on 'Christian' Gnosticism
5/27/2011 12:35 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: 'We believe...' this (not that)
5/27/2011 12:35 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: One could argue that the development of movements such as the LDS was inevitable once Christianity moved into territories where it was difficult or impossible to enforce a rigid definition, especially at a time when faiths in general were facing such challenges all over the world, from the development os modern communications, etc.
5/27/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: in an effort to define (in this case, what a particular faith stands for) we naturally draw a line
5/27/2011 12:37 pm (et) Lance Walker: I suspect many if not most traditions have been misunderstood, often in tragic ways. Our history of being misunderstood is not too far distant and the multi-generation members of the Church (if may use the term) still hear the family stories or read the family histories about how three or four or five generations ago, our own families were driven from their homes because of their religious beliefs. We still look to our forbears for examples of conviction and fortitude and faith.
5/27/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I might suggest we recall history and how many centuries (3+) it took Christianity to become the norm rather than the persecuted
5/27/2011 12:39 pm (et) Lance Walker: I agree.
5/27/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Newer religions always tend to be looked upon with suspicion and, as history goes, a couple hundred years is still relatively 'new'
5/27/2011 12:40 pm (et) Lance Walker: Back to the question of exclusivism and salvation. . . . .
5/27/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Plainly, claiming Jesus Christ as the principle source of one's inspiration is not enough to identify somebody as Christian, even if we prefer convenient labels. I think we need to look at the values expressed by Jesus in the New Testament (and/or the Book of Mormon) and how they are reflected in the behavior of somebody.
5/27/2011 12:42 pm (et) aaron: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/27/2011 12:42 pm (et).
5/27/2011 12:43 pm (et) Lance Walker: First and foremost we believe that God is the judge, and that he will judge us individually. We recognize that billions of people have lived or will live without an opportunity to embrace the gospel. Therefore. . . .
5/27/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: For that matter, I think it was a matter of 12 years after Christianity becoming legal in the Roman Empire, that attempts started being made to separate sheep from goats.
5/27/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Hengist, I'd say those values are more universal in nature - going well beyond being merely 'Christian'. So I'm not sure I'd agree that (at least technically speaking) we should use those values as a defining factor of 'Christian'
5/27/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Christianity is the religion ABOUT the Christ, not the religion OF Jesus
5/27/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: (Jesus was Jewish)
5/27/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: True, Laura, since there are Muslims who regard Jesus as 'a' source of inspiration, as an example to follow, and who reflect that in their lives.
5/27/2011 12:46 pm (et) Lance Walker: . . . We believe in the afterlife--the immortality of each unique soul, and that those without the opportunity to learn and the choice to accept the gospel here will be given the opportunity there.
5/27/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: IOW, 'it's never too late' to be saved
5/27/2011 12:48 pm (et) Lance Walker: The mercy of Christ.
5/27/2011 12:48 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: that's another reason why, I said earlier, that I find LDS more forgiving than many other Christian faiths
5/27/2011 12:48 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: What does it mean to have the opportunity? I know in the Catholic Church, the Gospel must be presented in a convincing way for one to fully have a choice
5/27/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: At the same time, there have been groups claiming to be Christian, claiming to be in acceptance of Jesus's death for their salvation, who then turned around and did horrific things to other Christians, motivated by what they apparently saw as their
duty to Christ.

5/27/2011 12:49 pm (et) Lance Walker: On the notion of who is an who is not Christian, specifically whether or not I am a Christian, I (along with many others, I'm sure) say ask my neighbor.
5/27/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Some of these people claiming to be Christian drove the LDS to Utah, as I understand it.
5/27/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: 'by their fruits ye shall know them'?
5/27/2011 12:50 pm (et) Lance Walker: In other words, who we are, or who we at least strive to be, is an essential part of our Christian faith.
5/27/2011 12:51 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ah, but what are those fruits? You mentioned in the video that we should be working together for the good of humanity, but many have different ideas of what that good is?
5/27/2011 12:51 pm (et) Lance Walker: Yes. . . by their fruits.
5/27/2011 12:51 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: there can be no 'bad' Christians (or 'bad' Muslims) because if you are bad you are not living the Christian life?
5/27/2011 12:51 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: The most convincing thing to me about the LDS has been the behavior of its people that I have met.
5/27/2011 12:52 pm (et) Lance Walker: I would put love, charity, helping and serving others at the root of those fruits.
5/27/2011 12:53 pm (et) Lance Walker: "root of those fruits" -- bad wording. Among the most important of the fruits.
5/27/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: And those who serve up hatred, claiming it to be Christian doctrine, are offering stones in place of bread.
5/27/2011 12:55 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Hengist: yes, I too have observed that Mormons tend to be some of the upright and nice people you will meet
5/27/2011 12:55 pm (et) Lance Walker: Another clarification on an early comment, regarding salvation for all. I should have said the JUSTICE and mercy of Christ. After all, isn't it only fair that all be given an opportunity. At least that's how we see it.
5/27/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Lance, I guess if LDS says we are given the opportunity AFTER death as well as during our limited life, then the opportunity is eternally available?
5/27/2011 12:57 pm (et) Lance Walker: Thank you conveying your favorable impressions. We certainly do not have the corner on goodness, kindness, etc.
5/27/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Ok All, it is again that time of the session where we must say good-bye. We'll hear from Lance about this last comment from Laura S and then we will wrap up our final comments.
5/27/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: I recommend for people who consider the Nicene Creed as definitive to consider Luke 9:49
5/27/2011 12:58 pm (et) Lance Walker: We're far from perfect too, and have the challenges and struggles in our personal lives. Thus the need for a saving gospel and a Savior.
5/27/2011 12:59 pm (et) Lance Walker: . . . "and have the challenges and struggles in our personal lives" 5/27/2011 1:00 pm (et) Lance Walker: Too short. Wish we had more time and faster typing skills. Thanks for this!
5/27/2011 1:00 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker, please send me an email at rebecccac@ifcmw.org. Next week we will be discussing ‘An Islamic View of Religious Violence’ with Imam Johari Abdul Malik.
5/27/2011 1:00 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
5/27/2011 1:00 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org and sign up for our bi-monthly e-newsletter by emailing me, again the address is rebeccac@ifcmw.org.

Friday, May 13, 2011

Ten Steps of Relations Among Religions: What Should We Aim For?

 You can view the corresponding video at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4vGN1tfiYA

5/13/2011 11:45 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 11:45 am (et).
5/13/2011 11:46 am (et) Mary: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 11:46 am (et).
5/13/2011 11:49 am (et) Tom Wolfe: logs in on 5/13/2011 11:49 am (et).
5/13/2011 11:56 am (et) Bexgee: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 11:56 am (et).
5/13/2011 11:56 am (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 11:56 am (et).
5/13/2011 11:57 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 11:57 am (et).
5/13/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
5/13/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘Ten Step of Relations among Religions: What Should We Aim For?’ with Tom Wolfe, Quaker member of IFC’s Board and Chair of IFC’s Center for Nurturing Understanding.
5/13/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
5/13/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues.
5/13/2011 12:08 pm (et) Kersi: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 12:08 pm (et).
5/13/2011 12:08 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Can you expand on what unity in diversity means?
5/13/2011 12:09 pm (et) RevMark2U: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 12:09 pm (et).
5/13/2011 12:09 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Unity in diversity comes when each faith is respected and God is seen as manifesting in each
5/13/2011 12:10 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: So each tradition is still connecting with the same God/
5/13/2011 12:11 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Even within the Interfaith Conference not everyone believes this but this is definitely the goal as far as I am concerned
5/13/2011 12:11 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: What are some of the other goals you have come across in your work?
5/13/2011 12:11 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I think of the order being respect first, then appreciation. Appreciation seems to suggest an actual acceptance not just of the other people (which is what respect would be) but acceptance of at least part of the teachings of the other religion. You respect people and then appreciate what those people have to share with you.
5/13/2011 12:12 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: The main goal we are working on presently is to teach about religion in the public school system
5/13/2011 12:13 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: We now have four states actively using our textbook to do this balanced teaching about religion honoring all faiths
5/13/2011 12:13 pm (et) Moderator: Mary said: I would add that appreciation includes accepting the aspects of another religion you don't agree with
5/13/2011 12:14 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Could you headline, Tom, any semi-measurable results that have come from this expanding project?
5/13/2011 12:14 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Or measurable?
5/13/2011 12:14 pm (et) Moderator: Mary said: You may have mentioned this in the video, but could you remind me what states are using the textbook? And also, what states are you now working to expand use of the textbook into?
5/13/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I feel as if accepting is something of an ambiguous word...can you expand on it, Mary and Laura?
5/13/2011 12:15 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: In the past 90 days we have trained 150 social studies teachers with the TAR model and are staying in touch with them to see how it flies where the rubber meets the roas i.e. in the classroom
5/13/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I teach about religion at the community college (NOVA) and I too have long stated that what I want most from my students is "tolerance, respect and appreciation for beliefs and opinions that might differ from their own"
5/13/2011 12:16 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: The 4 states ar utah California Virginia and now 7 counties in Maryland
5/13/2011 12:16 pm (et) Moderator: private message to Laura S: Hi, please try not to use double quotes, our software doesn't like them...
5/13/2011 12:17 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Co-Celebration which is our fourth step is a form of appreciation
5/13/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: what text book is being used? (the title)
5/13/2011 12:18 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: The book is Teaching About Religion which is available from the Interfaith Conference. We now have two supplements as well
5/13/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: Hi Laura, the textbook is an IFC effort called Teaching About Religion which asks practitioners of our 11 faith communities to answer a set of questions. We also have two supplements on topics of Symbols and Values.
5/13/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I think of respect in terms of agree to disagree, while accept means we find places where we are in agreement
5/13/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: > Tom and Laura: In these almost auto-polarizing times, have you had to deal with flack from parents or others?
5/13/2011 12:19 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I often find that simply having knowledge of the different religions, similarities and thus places for acceptance become clear to most people
5/13/2011 12:19 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: And if so, at which step especially?
5/13/2011 12:20 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: The history of teaching about religion in Public schools is rife with conflict historically but so far in our work not so much. It seems inevitable though as this begins to grow that we will encounter strong feelings.
5/13/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I don't think our main goal should be pure agrement though. I think the diversity part is important also. The differences enrich our experiences.
5/13/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I sometimes get flack from my more conservative Christian students - they resent that I insist they demonstrate respect and appreciation. They tend to find the fault with the other religions they are learning about
5/13/2011 12:21 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Do you have any telling anecdotes that lift your spirits?
5/13/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Mary said: What I mean by acceptance (specifically in this context) is the idea of having an educated understanding of a differing opinion and then knowledgably 'agreeing to disagree' (i.e - accepting the differences)
5/13/2011 12:22 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: The main thing that lifts my spirits these days is the request of the Saudi educators to meet with us on more than one occasion. Light in the darkness.
5/13/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Ahh! accept the differences and then respect the other anyway, despite those differences
5/13/2011 12:23 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Also it is uplifting to feel the enthusiasm of the social studies teachers for taking on this work.
5/13/2011 12:24 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: When we agree to disagree though...that seems to be the external consensus, what do you think in your head? What do you honestly feel about their goals and beliefs? I mean I am sure we can say we agree to disagree and yet some would continue to believe that ultimately that person is mistaken and will pay for that mistake...
5/13/2011 12:24 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: In some fundamenalist Christian circles, they would still say others are going to Hell...
5/13/2011 12:24 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I was thinking of accept in terms of accepting what one can agree with - an intellectual acceptance, rather than a social acceptance (which is what I was thinking of as respect)
5/13/2011 12:25 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I guess we'll find out on May 21st about that 'going to hell' ... or not.
5/13/2011 12:25 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: The consigning of other faiths to Hell is in Martin Luther, Terri Jones and the Saudi textsbooks
5/13/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I was wondering just how a true Muslim could hate the prophets of the Jews when Islam recognizes them as prophets for it's own faith.
5/13/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Same with Christians...
5/13/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: That sort of statement just demonstrates ignorance of one's own religion
5/13/2011 12:27 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Ah...but how do we get that across?
5/13/2011 12:27 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Looking back on my experience at IFC, one thing I regret is that I put too much emphasis on the intellectual understandings.
5/13/2011 12:28 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Teaching in the face of this kind of ignorance is exactly what we anticipate will be the future in the schools
5/13/2011 12:28 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Is this Mark Hoelter?
5/13/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Can you expand Mark, what would you have liked to have focused on instead?
5/13/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: This is
5/13/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: It seems to me that's both a Western and more specifically Christian bias, the emphasis on 'doctrine,' 'teaching,' ideas.
5/13/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Several sessions that really came alive were when we got into practices.
5/13/2011 12:29 pm (et) Aaron: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 12:29 pm (et).
5/13/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Co-celebration?
5/13/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Imam J led us all in the postures of prayer.
5/13/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I actualy have my students do field research to EXPERIENCE the other religions up close and personal - talk with people of the other faiths and get a sense of them as people just like them
5/13/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: And one 'learns' something different from sitting on the meditation cushion, then bowing to where you sat, than one learns from a lecture or reading on the ideas.
5/13/2011 12:30 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Laura...what school do you represent?
5/13/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Northern VA community collete
5/13/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: college
5/13/2011 12:32 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: The first amendment rights guarantee the first three steps toward unity in diversity, but co-celebration and unity at this time are not able to be taught in the public schools
5/13/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I also see how the 'doing' of such practices, even innocuously, could be trickier or more dangerous.
5/13/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: It seems Tom's model takes both the intellectual and then the spiritual (in co-celebration) and brings them to a higher level, the unity in diversity....is that correct?
5/13/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I often find my students do not look forward to the requirement to actually visit some place but after the fact they are very glad they had to do it and I am sure they will remember that experience the rest of their life (more so than the facts they read about in a text or hear in a lecture)
5/13/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Could be perceived as a kind of 'enrollment.'
5/13/2011 12:33 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: > Laura: Hmmmmmm. Rich.
5/13/2011 12:33 pm (et) Iris Firemoon: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 12:33 pm (et).
5/13/2011 12:33 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Outside the public schools and in our houses of worship, co-celebration and unity are for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see
5/13/2011 12:33 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I cannot require my students to actually participate in the religious activity (co-celebration) but they can observe it as an anthropologist might'
5/13/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Mark, a lot of traditions have issues with taking part in another's tradition...I have an aunt who will not go inside a Church as an Orthodox Jew
5/13/2011 12:34 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: In my Quaker school 5-8th grade class the young friends have really enjoyed going to other communities to learn and co-celebrate
5/13/2011 12:35 pm (et) clarkifc: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 12:35 pm (et).
5/13/2011 12:35 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Susan, yes, indeed.
5/13/2011 12:35 pm (et) Hengist: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/13/2011 12:35 pm (et).
5/13/2011 12:35 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: So how would you approach your aunt to gain tolerance as a first step is the challenge of this work
5/13/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: And there is also the possibility or danger of bastardization of a practice or tradition.
5/13/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I have had pentecostal students who are like your Orthodox Aunt. They believe there are evil spirits to get possessed by and they by visiting other places of worship they might be exposing themselves to this spiritual danger
5/13/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: What do we say to those traditions...they seem to want to skip the co-celebration part...so is it necessary?
5/13/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: My aunt is very willing to accept the diversity of religions, so it does not seem to stand in her way.
5/13/2011 12:37 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: I agree with Mark that sometimes an intellectual approach is secondary to meeting some people from the tradition who are different and easy to respect
5/13/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I think if we can just get people to the next level, we are accomplishing a lot. If they start with hatred and we get them to tolerate, that's enough for now
5/13/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I wonder if we should ascribe these 'refusals' to 'those traditions.'
5/13/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: It seems to me now that they are more a developmental level.
5/13/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: And I am pretty thoroughly a developmentalist, a'la James Fowler and others.
5/13/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: developmental level? as in they will grow out of it?
5/13/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Mark: Hunh? 'refusals to those traditions'?
5/13/2011 12:40 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: We have set up an e mail address for anyone interested in tracking this work (or helping) at TARlessonplans@Gmail.com
5/13/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: > Laura: not necessarily will, but can.
5/13/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I know this goes against a postmodern grain.
5/13/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Mark: still not clear what you are trying to say
5/13/2011 12:41 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Traditional people can identify with traditions in other faith groups. Often different traditions evolveto meet similar needs.
5/13/2011 12:41 pm (et) Moderator: Kersi said: Tom, when Mike Goggin was at the IFC he arranged several meetings at area schools to introduce different faiths to the students. Is the IFC going to continue with this practice?
5/13/2011 12:41 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: We have found that inferring that one can or needs to grow in regious understanding is an emotional stance and we continue to forge ahead anyway
5/13/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I try to emphasize the patterns across religions - the commen themes - in one of my courses
5/13/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: to demonstrate the universality of religion and the way it fulfills certain human needs
5/13/2011 12:43 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Kersi: Absolutely, we are looking for every opportunity to teach about all 11 faiths to any social studies teachers willing to attempt bringing religion into the classroom
5/13/2011 12:43 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Emotional expression is also a human need.
5/13/2011 12:43 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Tom can you also explain what you mean in your last comment please?
5/13/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: >Laura: Sorry. I'm saying that at least some of the people who might refuse to participate in even a superficial 'doing' of a practice, or in taking such a class, have a more childlike understanding of their religion and/or their spirituality.
5/13/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: A response to Kersi: Yes, the IFC is continuing that practice. With the publication of the Teaching About Religion book and now its supplements, many area schools and beyond our area are using these wonderful resources to strengthen the teaching about religion, expecially among high school students
5/13/2011 12:45 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Susan which comment are you referrring to?
5/13/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Mark: that 'child-like understanding' can be very frustrating - especially since, typically, those are the same people who THINK they know more than they do and have blinders up, refusing to open their minds to the fact that they may have more to learn
5/13/2011 12:46 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: the one about the emotional feeling of needing to grow and forging through it...
5/13/2011 12:46 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I agree, and no doubt the more so at the level you're teaching.
5/13/2011 12:46 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: For me, part of childhood is curiosity. Children have to learn to be afraid of the different.
5/13/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Hengist, that's a brilliant observation!
5/13/2011 12:47 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: This is one of the main reasons I hold it is important to train teachers and facilitators in a model that anticipates the issues and gives folks a goal to shoot for
5/13/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And awe, children are much more at awe of the world...losing that causes the world to become black and white....
5/13/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: And, Tom, this is clarifying for me, the goals will be different at different levels of development and education - HS versus College
5/13/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: 'black and white' thinking can be a comfort to a lot of people - they reject ambiguity and fuzzy greying of the lines
5/13/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: If children can learn to see beauty in the varietyof religious expression, their world view will be drastically different.
5/13/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: How do we create respect for people who deeply believe in their exclusivism?
5/13/2011 12:50 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Susan: Many religious folks know on a feeling level that other faiths are worthy of respect but the intellectual teaching of thier faith either discourages or forbids contact with fiath in what they perceive to be other Gods. Meeting people who practice othr faiths sometimes works better to break down the resistance than trying to intellectual convince. People are hard to hate in person
5/13/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Clark, that is a tough one! especially for those of us on this side of the fence who tend to think everyone needs to be more open-minded
5/13/2011 12:51 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Clark, I think we give them respect but we don't let them make the rules of engagement.
5/13/2011 12:51 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: In the extreme, that's like letting Osama bin Laden make the rules.
5/13/2011 12:51 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Well I think the distinction we made earlier is important too...even in exclusivism you can respect, although you cannot truly appreciate.
5/13/2011 12:51 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Our meeting with the Saudi educators was a case in point. We certainly did not agree about a lot of concepts, but they were easy to like. Hopefully they felt the same way about us.
5/13/2011 12:51 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: tom: that's why I feel my field reseach assignment is the most important one for my students to do
5/13/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Although maybe it is difficult to respect someone you think is going to Hell for sure...
5/13/2011 12:53 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Laura: In private schools it is easy to do, but in the public schools it has to be absolutely fair. It is a big step from where we are now to ask any social stusies teachers to visti other house of worship
5/13/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Mary said: I think that part of the issue is that teaching religion is often very impersonal, and disliking an idea on paper is easy. So Laura, I completely agree. Meeting people in person and providing a human face can help bridge a lot of differences.
5/13/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: tolerance, respect and appreciation are something that WE also have to work on within ourselves when we are faced with exclusivisists
5/13/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: And another approach to the practices occurs to me now.
5/13/2011 12:54 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: In one of the films - 3 families, perhaps - Yah-yah Hendi leads the children in a regular Muslim prayer, explaining each step, each phrase, each bow.
5/13/2011 12:54 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: So that 'enrolls' no one, is sort of conceptual, but goes a bit farther.
5/13/2011 12:54 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: It must become a truismto say 'I am a better follower of {religion} because I now understand another religion.
5/13/2011 12:55 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: I would like to believe that the spirit of any true worship would be able to be respected as folks get exposed to more diversity. I believe that the heart in all of us can feel the unity.
5/13/2011 12:55 pm (et) Moderator: Hi All, it is again that time of the week where we must wrap-up so please finish you final thoughts!
5/13/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Tom, do the HS teachers ever bring IN guest speakers from the different religions? That would be an alternative to field visits
5/13/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: There's that old, old saying from Max Mueller, 'The man [sic] who knows but one religion knows no religion.'
5/13/2011 12:57 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Yes the brave ones do. Our textbook is the easiest way for them to expose thier students since the fairness issue is taken care of.
5/13/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: The richness of this chat for me is that is has jostled loose some of my conceptions.
5/13/2011 12:57 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Please stay in touch Friends with this ongoing work at TARlessonplans@Gmail.com
5/13/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Can we cultivate a feeling of organic unity, thatis, that the world is better because there are many different expressions of Spirit, from each of which, anyone can learn, no matter whatyour own faith tradition may be.
5/13/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker or are interested in the Teaching About Religion (TAR) program or books (which are available through IFC) you can email tarlessonplans@gmail.com. Next week we will be taking a break (your moderator is graduating from Georgetown!) and will return the following week, May 27, to hear from one of our member faith communities, the Latter Day Saints. Stay tuned for the schedule for the next few months which will be posted on IFC’s website (www.ifcmw.org) by the end of the week!
5/13/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Ah, you're a dangerous person, Hengist! I love it.
5/13/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
5/13/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org and sign up for our bi-monthly e-newsletter by emailing me, again the address is rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
5/13/2011 12:59 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Thanks for sharing and Hengist Absolutely!!!

Wednesday, May 11, 2011

Relating the Eastern and Western Traditions in America

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1mUsuQWqCM

5/6/2011 11:45 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 5/6/2011 11:45 am (et).
5/6/2011 11:52 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/6/2011 11:52 am (et).
5/6/2011 11:54 am (et) DC Rao: logs in on 5/6/2011 11:54 am (et).
5/6/2011 12:02 pm (et) RevMark2U: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/6/2011 12:02 pm (et).
5/6/2011 12:03 pm (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
5/6/2011 12:03 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘Relating the Eastern and Western Traditions in America’ with Jerry Krell, President of Auteur Productions and filmmaker (‘The Asian and Abrahamic Religions: A Divine Encounter in America’) offering a reflection and standing by. More information and the documentaries are available at www.asianandabrahamicreligions.com and www.interfaithfilms.com. We also have DC Rao, a Hindu member of IFC’s board, present.
5/6/2011 12:03 pm (et) Jerry Krell: logs in on 5/6/2011 12:03 pm (et).
5/6/2011 12:03 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
5/6/2011 12:04 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments and the trailer for the film on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues.
5/6/2011 12:08 pm (et) NORMAN: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/6/2011 12:08 pm (et).
5/6/2011 12:08 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I wish there were a Christian minister or Catholic priest present, because one question I have is: why are the Asian religions a mystery to many members of your churches?
5/6/2011 12:09 pm (et) interfaith1017: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/6/2011 12:09 pm (et).
5/6/2011 12:10 pm (et) DC Rao: in the Hindu tradition there is a saying that ignorance is beginningless. it ends when we gain knowledge. so peole do not know about asian religinos until osme ffort is made to teach themabout it!
5/6/2011 12:10 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: As a Catholic, I would say just because it is so different. I mean some of the beliefs are almost exactly contrary to our own, meaning the difference between liberation and salvation.
5/6/2011 12:11 pm (et) DC Rao: i am not sure i know the difference between liberation and salvation
5/6/2011 12:11 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: It is almost easier to relate to other Abrahamic traditions because we can point to common beliefs and shard scripture.
5/6/2011 12:12 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Please correct me if I get this wrong, but liberation is about shedding ties to the world and others while salvation is about entering in a relationship.
5/6/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: DC, is this a correct interpretation of the goals of some of the Asian traditions?
5/6/2011 12:16 pm (et) DC Rao: when i enter into a relationship with God, it helps me ranscend the sorrows that inevitably come with human relationships and also makes more meaningful my engagement in the world.
5/6/2011 12:16 pm (et) DC Rao: read transcend, not rescend
5/6/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: OK, perhaps the issues arise then in the non-theistic traditions then, like some forms of Buddhism.
5/6/2011 12:17 pm (et) DC Rao: is there a buddhist present?
5/6/2011 12:18 pm (et) maynardm: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/6/2011 12:18 pm (et).
5/6/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U: I am intrigued by the neuroscience of it these days, Andrew Newberg and others. There do seem to be two distinctly different spiritual experiences. One is of a "presence," of a "Thou," with which/whom one can enter a relationship. The other is of a falling away of ego-boundaries, a liberation from the usual confines and definitions of our "selves." The first tends to be "theistic," the second tends to be "non-theistic," but it all gets more fluid than this, too.
5/6/2011 12:19 pm (et) DC Rao: Susan, what does entering a relationship mean to you as a Catholic?
5/6/2011 12:19 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: What intrigues me about Hinduism, so-called, is the room it gives for both of these experiences, from Bakhti yoga to Vedanta.
5/6/2011 12:20 pm (et) DC Rao: Hindu sages long ago recognised that peole are different: some lng for a personal relatinship; some are comforatble with seeking understanding.
5/6/2011 12:21 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: It does not sound dissimilar to what you described. A relationship with God enriches my own experience of the world by paying tribute to the One 'in charge'
5/6/2011 12:21 pm (et) Hengist: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/6/2011 12:21 pm (et).
5/6/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Perhaps that is also part of why it is so different? Christianity does not always allow for such disagreements among its adherents, I mean to the extent that one is non-theist or theist.
5/6/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: In making the film, what did the interactions among the two trends look like Jerry?
5/6/2011 12:22 pm (et) DC Rao: for us, the One is more than being 'in charge'. the supreme is the source of all that i am. ll
5/6/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes DC, I must agree, I guess I was trying to take a shortcut with that one...
5/6/2011 12:24 pm (et) Clarkifc: private message to Moderator: logs in on 5/6/2011 12:24 pm (et).
5/6/2011 12:24 pm (et) DC Rao: Mark, if i believe in a Supreme Being that is without form, am i theist or non-theist?
5/6/2011 12:25 pm (et) DC Rao: Susan, we all take short cuts. sometimes they work, sometimes not!
5/6/2011 12:26 pm (et) Jerry Krell: I defer to DC our film consultant in regards to susan's question to me
5/6/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: There are Christians these days, however, who do allow that sort of inclusiveness. I think of John B. Cobb, Jr. and other dialoguers. So I wonder why that hasn't spread? What's the
5/6/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: >DC: Excellent question, and one that I've churned for a long time!
5/6/2011 12:27 pm (et) DC Rao: re Susan's question, one must let the viewer be the judge of that!
5/6/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: But what was it about I guess daily interactions that led you to wanting to make the film?
5/6/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: What if all of these ways of looking at the Divine
are valid? If the Divine is within, without, the partner in all of our doings, a loving but firm parent, an environment in which we learn to function, a collection of ideals. Is light a wave or a particle? What is the consequence of having assumed validity of multiple views of the Divine, which, according to our logic, are mutually exclusive.

5/6/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: There are some who say that the Emptiness or Creative Void of the Buddhists functions very much like a God functions for theists, even though the content, the substance is very different.
5/6/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I could be down with that, Hengist.
5/6/2011 12:29 pm (et) DC Rao: as a Hindu, i believe that the Supreme Being is all powerful i.e. can choose to be with form or without!
5/6/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: It all depends on how you set up the experiment, so to speak.
5/6/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I myself simply have no experience of such a Thou, of a Supreme Being. As one philosopher said, 'Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.'
5/6/2011 12:31 pm (et) DC Rao: the notion that if your veiw is different from mine and i accept it, i must reject what i believe, is a major stumbling block to meaningful dialogue between religions.
5/6/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: I think that all of our supreme Being imagery seems to exclude any form of logical limits.
5/6/2011 12:32 pm (et) DC Rao: our scriptures say that the supreme being is 'beyond the reach of thought' and certainly beyond the rech of words.
5/6/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Our Scriptures and tradition for that matter point to the same.
5/6/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: However, I guess that doesn't stop many from making exclusivist claims.
5/6/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: What if the Supreme Being is beyond existence? If the Supreme Being caused 'being' to be possible.
5/6/2011 12:35 pm (et) DC Rao: while we find difficulty in experiencing the Divine, we all certainly can experience our own existence. Hindu philosophy uses that as a spring board to experience the divine within us.
5/6/2011 12:35 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: There being no scripture with supernatural origin for me, I can only speak from my experience.
5/6/2011 12:36 pm (et) DC Rao: what i wonder is why exclusivist claims have such attraction.
5/6/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: maynardm said: beyond the reach of thought and words is certainly consistent with the Juddaic sense and implicit in the Christian affirmation. It is very explicit in the Psalms.
5/6/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: But just because we can't say everything about the Supreme Being, can't we say something? That is the point of Scripture and Jesus in the Christian tradition. However, if that is what we know, the differences are more difficult to make sense of
5/6/2011 12:37 pm (et) DC Rao: so here is something we can all celebrate! then why so much argument??
5/6/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: i think that is a slight answer to your question DC. We hold on so tightly to what we do know.
5/6/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: In the final analysis, experience is all that any of us really has, whether that of senses, feelings, rational evaluation, etc.
5/6/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: While it was a quarter step in the right direction, I was very bothered by one aspect
5/6/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Way too much it relied on Christian clergy explicating Buddhism.
5/6/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: maynardm said: in my expewrience the exclusivist claim is made by those who need certainty, those who cannot accept the indeterminancy of existence.
5/6/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Also explaining Hinduism and Sikhism, although a better job was done with Sikhs explaining Sikhism. So that much was good.
5/6/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: We argue because humans have a need to define boundaries, set limits, assess the circumstances of interaction, which makes the idea of trying to
define something which is limitless somewhat fantastic.

5/6/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I completely agree with Hengist, and setting boundaries may not be the issue but the problem is trying to make those boundaries impervious by making a buffer zone, so the traditions begin to push on one another.
5/6/2011 12:41 pm (et) DC Rao: part of the Jain philosophy is the belief that there are ALWAYS many viewpoints and no one of them should be taken as exclusively true.
5/6/2011 12:41 pm (et) Moderator: Clarkifc said: Jerry, what were the suprises in doing this film?
5/6/2011 12:41 pm (et) DC Rao: The Vedas say 'truth is one, the WISE know it by manynames.
5/6/2011 12:42 pm (et) DC Rao: jerry, are you responding to Mark's comment? re
5/6/2011 12:45 pm (et) DC Rao: Keep in mind the audience to which this documentary is addressed: those Americans who know little or nothing about the eastern religions. People find statements more credible when they are made by someone they know or have reason to trust i.e. people somewhat like themselves. So when a Jewish Rabbi says that the Hindu practice of worshipping
images of deities is no way similar to the practice of idol worship condemned in the Jewish scriptures, or that Sikhism is definitely a religion of the Book, people are more inclined to
understand and accept these facts.

5/6/2011 12:48 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I still would wish for a Buddhist or a Hindu to make a statement. Then let the rabbi or minister ask a question of clarification, and then perhaps make a statement to fellow Jews or Christians or Muslims. Then let the Buddhist or Hindu or Jain respond. Dialogue!
5/6/2011 12:48 pm (et) Jerry Krell: The doc serves as a catalyst for dialgoue and I am always pleasently surprised at the direction, and the new insights that emenate from that dialogue. As witnessed by todays conversation..
5/6/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: I think that 'coddling,' if I may call it such, is a HUGE part of the problem and part of why Christians are so ignorant of the Asian religions.
5/6/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I guess, but at the same time you have to meet people where they are or you get through to no one.
5/6/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: What if it should prove that the scriptures and principal statements of any religion prove to offer new insights when looked at from another belief system's point of view. Different visions through different glasses, as it were. Then such insight might then prove valuable to that belief groups adherents.
5/6/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: My 'coddling' remark was a follow up to my previous remark, not a response to Jerry.
5/6/2011 12:51 pm (et) DC Rao: Mark, i think Susan has a good point. we have to deal with the situation as we find it.
5/6/2011 12:51 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: My proposed strategy would, I think, meet people where they are at.
5/6/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: So that comment came in right before your response DC, and I was just slow to approve it.
5/6/2011 12:52 pm (et) DC Rao: re Hengist: i have a Catholic who studies the Bhagavad Gita with me weekly for some years, and that has led her to being a better Catholic and she has enrolled for a masters in pastoral counselling.
5/6/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: So where are people at and where is the meeting place?
5/6/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: That was to Mark.
5/6/2011 12:53 pm (et) DC Rao: we can only deal with people who are willing to learn and help make it easy for them to do so
5/6/2011 12:54 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Good question, Susan. Are people 'at' scared about this? Or something else?
5/6/2011 12:55 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Well, usually different does equal scared...which is unfortunate.
5/6/2011 12:55 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Can we convince people that not to experience the point of view of other belief systems is to really miss something valuable, in an existential sense?
5/6/2011 12:55 pm (et) DC Rao: Susan, you hve jsut quoted an Upanishad that says: where we see difference, there is fear.
5/6/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Susan & DC, that's limbic brain or alligator brain talking. And I agree it's there.
5/6/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Ok All, it is again that time of the week where we must say good-bye, so any final thoughts, please get them down.
5/6/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: When we see difference, then we are near....
5/6/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: So, as to 'where people can meet,' how do we help them and ourselves to activate the prefrontal cortex, the over-riders of the limbic, scared brain?
5/6/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: And whose job is that with each tradition?
5/6/2011 12:58 pm (et) DC Rao: unfortunately, somereligous teaching reinforces the fear. how can we work to change that?
5/6/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: Yes, right on, DC
5/6/2011 1:00 pm (et) Moderator: RevMark2U said: It's a good, incomplete place to end, begging for more....
5/6/2011 1:00 pm (et) DC Rao: this dialogue ahs shown that we have more to share than we know
5/6/2011 1:00 pm (et) Jerry Krell: Dc's quote" Where there is difference there is fear. Another strong motivation for making the doc. To help people to confront prejudice and stereotypes and learn to understatnd and respect one another!
5/6/2011 1:01 pm (et) Hengist: private message to Moderator: logs off on 5/6/2011 1:01 pm (et).
5/6/2011 1:03 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker, please contact me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. We hope to see you back here next week. Next week, we will hear from Tom Wolfe on ‘Ten Steps of Relations Among Religions: What Should We Aim For?’ Stay tuned for the schedule for the next few months which will be posted on IFC’s website (www.ifcmw.org) by the end of the week!
5/6/2011 1:04 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
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