Friday, July 29, 2011

The Buddhist Tradition and Interreligious Dialogue

The coressponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ZruhDnYxM

7/29/2011 10:46 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:46 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:48 am (et) Bill Aiken: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:48 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:48 am (et) Mary: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:48 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:52 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:52 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:52 am (et) Josie: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:52 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:54 am (et) Christa : private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:54 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:54 am (et) medina: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:54 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:55 am (et) Hussong: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:55 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:56 am (et) clarkifc: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:56 am (et).
7/29/2011 10:59 am (et) Darrow: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 10:59 am (et).
7/29/2011 11:00 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
7/29/2011 11:00 am (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/29/2011 11:00 am (et).
7/29/2011 11:00 am (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘The Buddhist Tradition and Interreligious Dialogue.’ We will be featuring a reflection from Bill Aiken, Executive Director of Washington SGI Buddhist Culture Center and Chair of IFC’s Board. For more information on the Culture Center go to www.sgi-usa-washingtondc.org and for more information on the Buddhist tradition go to www.sgi.org.
7/29/2011 11:00 am (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
7/29/2011 11:01 am (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues.
7/29/2011 11:09 am (et) Moderator: Mary said: Would you say there is a difference between Buddhism in the US verses Buddhism in Asia? I know that in Asia (I guess most specifically China) its basically ingrained in the culture. whereas here its more of an outside presence. Do you think that has potentially affected Buddhism in America?
7/29/2011 11:10 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Why do you think that, of all eastern religions, Buddhism has the most appeal to a western audiance (more so than Hinduism, for instance)?
7/29/2011 11:11 am (et) Bill Aiken: I do think that the expression in the US is more "individual" and in the Asia more communal. This reflects the different outlook of each of these cultures.
7/29/2011 11:12 am (et) Moderator: Darrow said: You mentioned several forms of Buddhism. Could you tell us these forms and a short synopsis of each?
7/29/2011 11:13 am (et) Bill Aiken: The influenceof Hinduism is interesting. There may noot be many Americans becoming Hindu, but there are quite a few people practicing Yogo and meditation. So there is an influence that expresses itself differently.
7/29/2011 11:15 am (et) Bill Aiken: There are three major 'streams': Theravada, or 'teaching of the elders' which is the most traditional expression and is seen mostly throughout Sri Lanka and SE Asia. NExt there is the Mahayana or "great vehicle" which spread mainly throughout china, Korea, Vietnam and Japan. Mahana schools include Zen, Pure Land, Nichiren and Shingon.
7/29/2011 11:15 am (et)
Moderator: Laura S said: And how is it that many western Buddhists can and will continue to identify as BOTH Buddhist AND Christian or Jewish?
7/29/2011 11:15 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: You talk about developing the good human qualities, such as compassion, and that these are cultivated by different religions, but even in developing these qualities, the specifics of implementing them (which you also mention as important) differ, so how do you deal with that?
7/29/2011 11:16 am (et) Bill Aiken: The third major stream is 'Vajrayana' or Diamond Vehicle which is more esoteric in nature and is found mainly in Tibet.
7/29/2011 11:17 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Laura, that seems to be an interesting tie in with one of the last discussions on here. Can you be both or is the combination something different entirely
7/29/2011 11:17 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: Buddhists can have a belief in a divine being or can be atheists, right? Does that ever cause strife within the various schools of thought?
7/29/2011 11:17 am (et) Bill Aiken: Regarding the identity issue, I believe there are many who are influenced or inslired by Buddhist philosophy or meditaiton, but do not change their religious affiliation. Why is a very good questino for a sociologist.
7/29/2011 11:18 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: And if there are such different views, what makes them cohesive as 'Buddhism'?
7/29/2011 11:19 am (et) Bill Aiken: At the risk of being simplistic, I believe that while the traditions may differ, if there is a common will to work together to address the suffering of humanity, then these differences can be a rich source to draw on. If we are not oriented in this positive way, the differences can be a source of great conflict.
7/29/2011 11:19 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Perhaps the duel identify is possible because Buddhism is not exclusive and does not require nor prohibit belief in God?
7/29/2011 11:20 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Thus it does not conflict so much as complement other faiths?
7/29/2011 11:21 am (et) Bill Aiken: There are also important differences among Buddhist schools and traditions. In the past there was a tradition of debate which at times became very heated. I think it is more important now to find ways to work together.
7/29/2011 11:21 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: But it seemed in our discussion of interfaith families there was a stumbling block over the fact that when two groups conflict one must be chosen and then you have fallen in with a specific camp...
7/29/2011 11:22 am (et) Bill Aiken: I think that up to a point, one can retain their tradition and Buddhism acan help to inform it, etc. But I also believe that at some point it makes sense to go deep into one tradition or the other.
7/29/2011 11:22 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: you are therefore one and not both
7/29/2011 11:22 am (et) Moderator: Christa said: Along these lines do you feel that, beacuse Buddhism can be a good suppliment to any religious practice, that it is particularly helpful to interreligious dialogue?
7/29/2011 11:23 am (et) Bill Aiken: I think interfaith families have their own issues and challenges. I was the producet of a PRotestant-Catholic mariage back when it was not so easy for may parents. They agreed to raise me Catholic. In the end I became Buddhist.
7/29/2011 11:24 am (et) Bill Aiken: Re Buddhism and interreligious dialogue, I believe that Buddhism can offer some good perspectives and practices. But so can some of the other traditions.
7/29/2011 11:24 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I feel as if it must at least at the beginning because you can point to commonalities, but when the discussion gets past that, what is tehre?
7/29/2011 11:25 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: WHY did you choose Buddhism over the religions you were raised with?
7/29/2011 11:26 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I liked in the video how you talked not only about what Buddhism can bring to Interfaith dialogue but also what you, as a Buddhist can gain from listening to others in dialogue
7/29/2011 11:26 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I agree with Laura, I think all traditions could benefit from that stance
7/29/2011 11:26 am (et) Bill Aiken: I chose Buddhism because it looked for the the ulti,mate within the human heart. It was this equation between the macrocosmos of the universe and the inner microcosmos of the human that made sense to me. But mostly it was the impact of Buddhist practice that gave me a way to get to and cultivate my inner self,. I thought it was helping me to become a better, happier person.
7/29/2011 11:27 am (et) Bill Aiken: I think that listening is a vital and powerful practice.
7/29/2011 11:27 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Do you consider Buddhism a religion? a philosophy? a 'way of life'?
7/29/2011 11:28 am (et) Bill Aiken: There are differing views. We are socially and historically considered a religion and that is fine. It is a philosophy with a practice that requires devotion. I'm not sure if that makes it religion or not.
7/29/2011 11:29 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: What makes Buddhism Buddhism? I mean it seems that beliefs are all over the place...
7/29/2011 11:30 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Sorry I guess I just don't know much about it
7/29/2011 11:30 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Many westerners would have a hard time understanding Buddhism as a 'religion' due to it not having a god. How would you respond to this way of understanding what a 'religion' is?
7/29/2011 11:31 am (et) Bill Aiken: It is not a set of beliefs. It begins with one person;s awakening. His teaching and example are meant to lead us to our own awakening. The teaching are mainly to guide and support us in this way. THere are also expressions with more delineated moral codes, etc.
7/29/2011 11:31 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Hmmm, I guess I'm not so much stumbling over no god, but more of an issue is the cohesiveness...again the Catholic thing must be gettign in the way
7/29/2011 11:32 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ok, so basically it is a way to help you discover yourself?
7/29/2011 11:32 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Susan: or to become a BETTER self
7/29/2011 11:33 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: a 'selfless' self
7/29/2011 11:33 am (et) Bill Aiken: It's true that we are not focused. It is instead a human-centered religion. That can sound narcissistic, but Buddhist practice is actually aiming to help us go beyond the smaller, 'lesser' self and fuse with the 'great self' of the cosmos. Toward this end we seek out and fuse with the dharma or Law.
7/29/2011 11:33 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Susan, beyond Catholic unity, Christianity is even more diverse (and sometimes internally divisive) than Buddhism
7/29/2011 11:34 am (et) Bill Aiken: The important thing is one's heart. For me BUddhist practice gave me a way t cultivate my inner heart and spirit.
7/29/2011 11:34 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yea, I mean I am well aware of even the differences among Catholics, but at the same time we are all bound by a specific doctrine
7/29/2011 11:35 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yea, I mean I am well aware of even the differences among Catholics, but at the same time we are all bound by a specific doctrine
7/29/2011 11:35 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I can see where that helps in IRD, I mean I find my Catholicism does the same for me.
7/29/2011 11:35 am (et) Bill Aiken: Buddhists are bound together by their commitment to the three treasures (Buddha, Law and Community).
7/29/2011 11:36 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Can you explain Law in more depth?
7/29/2011 11:36 am (et) Moderator: Josie said: So say I share many of the Buddhist beliefs. At what point would I be considered 'Buddhist'?
7/29/2011 11:36 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: And expounding further on law.. how would Buddhists in America look at issues of separation from church and state?
7/29/2011 11:38 am (et) Bill Aiken: The Law or Dharma can be thought of as the fundamental compassionate impulse and wisdom of life itself. All life, from them ost base to the most noble is an expression of this dharma. To be awaoken to this dharma is to fuse our lives with this fundamental law of life.
7/29/2011 11:39 am (et) Bill Aiken: BEcoming a Buddhist is usually a mtter of joining a community and practicing with a teacher.
7/29/2011 11:39 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ok, not to get too philosophical, but what is dharma ontologically? It seems pretty amorphous to me and that description can honestly be applied to other vocabulary
7/29/2011 11:40 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: and then you discover and embody the law (dharma)
7/29/2011 11:40 am (et) Bill Aiken: As to separation of Church and State, there is a mixed tradition. I personally believe strngly that religion does best when it is not touched by the hand of the state. On the other hand, I believe that people of faith should by all meaens be engaged in the public square.
7/29/2011 11:41 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Bill: Is the answer to Susan's question found in the Four Noble Truths?
7/29/2011 11:41 am (et) Bill Aiken: Sorry, I do not have a better more succinct description of the dharma. It is here that volumes are written.
7/29/2011 11:42 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I can see that happen, so people have a wide variety of interpretation of dharma?
7/29/2011 11:42 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Bill: isn't the essence of the Dharma found in the Four Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path?
7/29/2011 11:42 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Isn't that the minimum that all Buddhists recognize (beyond the Three Treasures)?
7/29/2011 11:43 am (et) Bill Aiken: I think the path to the dharma is indeed found there, i.e. in Buddhist practice.
7/29/2011 11:44 am (et) Bill Aiken: The eightfold path can be broken down into three area: precepts (ethics), meditation and wisdom.
7/29/2011 11:45 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Getting back to the topic of Buddhism and interreligious dialogue... I understand that it took some time for the IFC to accept the Buddhist community into dialogue as official members. Why was this? Was it because Buddhism does not necessarilly have God or a god as its focus?
7/29/2011 11:45 am (et) Bill Aiken: IT should be noted that to be Buddhist one must base their practice and beliefs on the Buddha's teachings and intent.
7/29/2011 11:46 am (et) Bill Aiken: But, yes how we understand this is where differences arise.
7/29/2011 11:46 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: intent=becoming enlightened, practice=the meditation and stuff like that
7/29/2011 11:46 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: As, to be Christian, one bases one's beliefs on the teachings of Christ?
7/29/2011 11:47 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Or being Muslim is based on following the teachings that came through Muhammad and the model for behaivor he set
7/29/2011 11:48 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: and his teachings are the 4 noble truths and 8 fold path, correct?
7/29/2011 11:48 am (et) Bill Aiken: I'll leave it to others to descrivbe any issues about Buddhism not being God-centered. As far as I know this was not an issue. THere was a requirement that - given the diverse schools of Buddhism in the DC area (25 more or less) the IFC asked that we pull together an umbrella organization to represent the diverse traditions. This took some time. We did eventually form the Wash DC Buddhist network, rrepresenting nine of the schools in the area.
7/29/2011 11:49 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: The Buddhist Network of Metropolitan Washington
7/29/2011 11:49 am (et) Bill Aiken: regarding intent, I would say, yes, attaining enlightenment, but also devoting oneself to removing the suffering of all living beings. THis is the Buddha's fundamental vow.
7/29/2011 11:50 am (et) Bill Aiken: YEs,
7/29/2011 11:50 am (et) Moderator: Darrow said: Bill, appreciated your video and found it helpful in gaining an overview of Buddhism. Gained some further insight from the questions. Not easy to work with bits and pieces like this. Thanks very much.
7/29/2011 11:51 am (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: Laura, The length of time it took for the Buddhist faith community to become a member of the IFC was related to the time it took to create the Washington Area Buddhist Network of both South Asian Buddhist congregations and convert Buddhist communities. We did not want just the convert community (often called 'blue eyed' Buddhists) to become a member knowing that the origins of the tradition were in South Asia.
7/29/2011 11:51 am (et) Bill Aiken: Thanks. It's also not easy for me to type very fast. Sorry for the typos.
7/29/2011 11:52 am (et) Moderator: Josie said: Bill, has the Buddhist faith taken any recent action to become more interfaith oriented?
7/29/2011 11:52 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: 'blue eyed Buddhsts' - never heard that expression before! I also understand that there is not much of a mixing of Asian and western Buddhists. True?
7/29/2011 11:53 am (et) Bill Aiken: I believe that here in DC there has been the effort of forming the Buddhist Network to become more involved with interfaith activities.
7/29/2011 11:55 am (et) Bill Aiken: Laura, I agree that there are some real gaps in perception and culture between Asian and Western Buddhists. IN the SGI we have both so it has been a great learning process for all!
7/29/2011 11:55 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I am sorry to go back to beliefs, but I do feel that in this discussion trying to find where one can talk about difference in IRD is also important. So to clarify one must be oriented towards alleviating suffering and they do this through the different practice illuminated in the 4 noble truths and 8 fold path?
7/29/2011 11:56 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I also know that Ekoji Pure Land Buddhism (Fairfax) is a very culturally mixed group
7/29/2011 11:56 am (et) Bill Aiken: YEs, Susan, I think that this is a fair, but general statement. How each tradition embraces this is a bit different.
7/29/2011 11:57 am (et) Bill Aiken: YEs, Ekoji is mixed.
7/29/2011 11:57 am (et) Moderator: Ok everyone, we have to wrap up in couple of minutes, so if you have any further comments/questions, now is the time!
7/29/2011 11:58 am (et) Bill Aiken: WEll, I appreciate the chance to share these thoughts and I really appreciate your interest and great questions.
7/29/2011 11:58 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes, this has given me a lot of food for thought. It is interesting to see the ways these beliefs interact with my own
7/29/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker please contact me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. Next week we will be discussing ‘When Religions Turn Violent.’
7/29/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
7/29/2011 11:59 am (et) Bill Aiken: Thank you.
7/29/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org and sign up for our bi-monthly e-newsletter by emailing me, again the address is rebeccac@ifcmw.org.

Friday, July 15, 2011

Being Both; The Interfaith Experience

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rR_KuiBCd8

7/15/2011 10:45 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: logs in on 7/15/2011 10:45 am (et).
7/15/2011 10:46 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 10:46 am (et).
7/15/2011 10:48 am (et) Christa: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 10:48 am (et).
7/15/2011 10:48 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 10:48 am (et).
7/15/2011 10:50 am (et) Hussong: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 10:50 am (et).
7/15/2011 10:50 am (et) LindsayU: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 10:50 am (et).
7/15/2011 10:53 am (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 10:53 am (et).
7/15/2011 10:57 am (et) adambriddell: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 10:57 am (et).
7/15/2011 10:59 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
7/15/2011 11:00 am (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘Being Both: The Interfaith Movement.’ We will be featuring a reflection from Rev. Julia Jarvis, member of IFC’s Assembly and Spiritual Director of The Interfaith Families Project of Greater Washington (www.iffp.net), and Sue Katz Miller, interfaith blogger (www.onbeingboth.com) and member of IFFP. Unfortunately, Rev. Jarvis will not be able to join us today, but Sue Katz Miller is present at the chat.
7/15/2011 11:00 am (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
7/15/2011 11:00 am (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues.
7/15/2011 11:03 am (et) sharon.miller: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 11:03 am (et).
7/15/2011 11:03 am (et) jdiggs: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 11:03 am (et).
7/15/2011 11:04 am (et) Betty: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 11:04 am (et).
7/15/2011 11:09 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I guess I'll start off: Do you ever hear children say they feel conflicted over their two faiths? I.e. I had a hard time growing up as a dual citizen, never feeling part of one country or the other. Do the children in this group feel the same?
7/15/2011 11:10 am (et) Moderator: Betty said: How does the Interfaith Families Project teach both Judaism and Christianity?
7/15/2011 11:10 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Sue: you identify as Jewish. is your own husband Jewish or not?
7/15/2011 11:11 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: How many families are now involved with the Interfaith Families Project? How old is this project/community?
7/15/2011 11:11 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Hussong: Part of the goal of an indendent interfaith community is to give children that "country to belong to." When they go out into the world, they may choose another country (one religion), but they are growing up with a sense of community, which we believe is very important.
7/15/2011 11:12 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Are any of the kids grown now and made their own faith decisions to pick one faith over the other, no faith, continue to embrace both faiths or maybe picked an entirely different faith for themselves?
7/15/2011 11:12 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Laura: My husband grew up Episcopalian. We are both deeply involved with our interfaith community now, each of us has served on the Board, for instance.
7/15/2011 11:13 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Do people also stay in touch with their individual communities on top of being a part of IFFP?
7/15/2011 11:13 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Betty: Our Sunday School classes each have a pair of teachers, one Jewish, one Christian. We teach the stories, songs, holidays, and ideas of both
7/15/2011 11:14 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: How about when they get to a certain age and you start teaching details such
as Jesus not being the Messiah to Jews but yes to the Christians? I don't come
from the background but I find it interesting to see how children/adolescents
would start to accept one or the other, or perhaps both..

7/15/2011 11:15 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: or perhaps neither?
7/15/2011 11:16 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: In our DC group, the first kids to go through our program are through college now, but not yet settled down with their own children. I have also interviewed and surveyed children raised in the NY Interfaith Community, which started up in the 80s. Some interfaith children DO choose Judaism, or Christianity. Others keep an interfaith identity. Some say they would seek out an interfaith community in which to raise their own children. What I am seeing, is that often adult interfaith children make a religious decision based on who they marry.
7/15/2011 11:17 am (et) Moderator: Betty said: It's interesting that you mention that you don't water down Christianity and Judaism, but teach both. Is it like Messianic Judaism?
7/15/2011 11:17 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Susan: Some people do continue to go to synagogue, or church, in addition to being part of our community. We also have families who have given their children a single religious label, Jewish for instance, but still want their children to be educated about both religions in the family so they come to us.
7/15/2011 11:18 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Do the kids ever end up just confused about religion - due to the differences rather than the similarities?
7/15/2011 11:19 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Our interfaith group has a healthy percentage of atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, Unitarians, Quakers, and progressive Catholics. In some ways, we are the 'opposite' of Messianic Judaism, in that I think very few people see Jesus as a personal savior, or have fundamentalist beliefs. We don't think of this as 'watered down' though.
7/15/2011 11:20 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I've had students in my college classes from Interfaith families who chose to NOT raise their kids in EITHER religion and let them choose when they grow up. That "solution" never seems to work well as the young adults cannot choose in a vacuum
7/15/2011 11:20 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I like to hear that!
7/15/2011 11:21 am (et) clarkifc: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 11:21 am (et).
7/15/2011 11:21 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I imagine an 'fundamentalist' would tend NOT to marry someone of another faith to begin with
7/15/2011 11:21 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Your group sounds a lot like the Unitarian church. How is it different and why would your families go to you instead of the UU church for the same sort of diversity of experience?
7/15/2011 11:22 am (et) Moderator: sharon.miller said: I live in Georgia. How do I find other interfaith couples in synagogues and churches without prying into people's business?
7/15/2011 11:22 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Laura: I agree that children should not be raised in a vacuum, but given a rich background in the history, rituals and beliefs of the religion(s) chosen by their family, and/or represented in their family trees. This is very different from "doing nothing." Sadly, a lot of interfaith families have been "doing nothing" because they could not find a safe community in which to participate, or that met the needs of both parents.
7/15/2011 11:24 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: How are you then making your (or simliar) groups more gererally known so that new IF families can know there is a place they can turn to
7/15/2011 11:25 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: That might be the beauty of something along these lines, the Internet gives you a perfect way to get the idea out there.
7/15/2011 11:25 am (et) Moderator: LindsayU said: I don't know if this has been asked yet, but has the interfaith education ever expanded to include Muslim teachings since it follows the Abrahamic tradition?
7/15/2011 11:25 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Laura: It is true that Unitarian-Universalist (UU) churches have provided a home, historically, for many interfaith families seeking to expose their children to both religions. Intentional interfaith communities are different in that they provide deeper and more specific background in two specific religions (rather than a full array of religions). For instance, our interfaith Sunday School teaches Hebrew literacy starting in Pre-K, so that interfaith children will be prepared if they choose to have a Bar/Bat Mitzvah, or join a Jewish community. A Unitarian church won't do that for you. Also, some Jewish partners still find UU communities too Christian in their focus--it varies greatly from one UU community to another.
7/15/2011 11:27 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Sharon: Most Jewish communities are now doing specific outreach to interfaith families, so that is one way to meet others. Even if a synagogue is your primary community, it can be helpful for interfaith kids to meet other interfaith kids in, for example, a monthly Shabbat with other interfaith families.
7/15/2011 11:27 am (et) Moderator: adambriddell said: Is there a sacramental aspect to life in the IFFP community?
7/15/2011 11:27 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: And, if so, how does it deal with the specific nature of those sacraments?
7/15/2011 11:28 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: To expand on adam's question: do you mainly just educate or actually celebrate and worship interfaith?
7/15/2011 11:28 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Lindsay: That's a really interesting question. There are a growing number of Muslim/Jewish and Christian/Muslim families, and they sometimes come to our group for advice. We do not want to expand our entire program to three religions, because we have barely enough time to teach two religions with sufficient detail and depth. But my hope is to help foster specific Muslim interfaith communities if families want to take that path.
7/15/2011 11:30 am (et) MikeS: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/15/2011 11:30 am (et).
7/15/2011 11:33 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: I very much believe that many children and adults seek spiritual experience, and we do provide that for this who want it. Every week, we have a 'Gathering' of songs and reflection. The theme might be a Jewish holiday, a Christian holiday, or a shared theme like social justice. Personally, I do not describe this as 'worship' since we are not a religion, we are a support community. We do not teach the children what to believe. However, I find, and my children (now 14 and 17) find, great spiritual rewards from singing and reflecting with this community.
7/15/2011 11:33 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: It just seems that sacrament would be the wrong word...I mean would it not be that those people continue to go to their individual traditions for...
7/15/2011 11:33 am (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: Can you give an example or examples of ways that you are teaching both Christianity and Judaism in their specificity as well as in that overlapping cirlce you've talked about in your logo?
7/15/2011 11:34 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: You must have to deal with the somewhat traditional (although not correct in my opinion) Christian anti-Judaism
7/15/2011 11:35 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Growing up myself as an interfaith child, but raised as a Catholic, I had to find my own answers to this, which didn't really happen until college
7/15/2011 11:36 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Clark: Sure. For instance, by upper elementary school, students are learning about the life of Jesus (Christian) and the life of Hillel (his Jewish contemporary) and the history of how Christianity evolved from Judaism (historical overlap) as well as the shared ideas about 'loving your neighbor' that Jesus and Hillel both spoke of...
7/15/2011 11:36 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I have to say, as a child hearing that your grandmther is going to Hell is quite traumatizing
7/15/2011 11:36 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: When older kids start in the program, do they respond differently to it than younger kids who have been there all along?
7/15/2011 11:38 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Susan: Part of the strength and mission of an interfaith families community is to prepare our children to deal with the 'going to Hell' reactions as well as 'you're not Jewish' reactions. We want them to understand why people make these comments, and how to respond to them. Again, they are not apt to get this kind of education in a single-religion education program.
7/15/2011 11:38 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Haha, I definitely got the 'you're not Jewish' one too...
7/15/2011 11:39 am (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: Amen to Susan's last comment about how traumatizing it must have been to hear that your grandmother was going to hell. The breadth and depth of God's love is something so many of us don't have any grasp of. What is the Interfaith Families Project doing . Sue Katz Miller has just responded while I was still typing this. Are there other ways the IFFP is doing this?
7/15/2011 11:40 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Laura: We do have kids joining, even at the Teen Group level. As an interfaith child who did not find this community until adulthood (because it didn't exist yet) I will say I felt tremendous joy and relief when I joined, and I think older children can feel the same. That said, it is harder to make older kids start going to Sunday School if they haven't been going at all, and want their Sundays free
7/15/2011 11:41 am (et) Moderator: That's going to change! (Sorry for the Moderator interruption, but I will be starting as the Teen Group leader there this fall)
7/15/2011 11:42 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: What I more specifically had in mind is if the older kids (those who do not start this IF education until they are teens) as redily identify as IF or both religions as the younger ones might?
7/15/2011 11:43 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I think it depends on the family, I do view myself as IF in some sense, but I was very lucky to have a supportive family, although not terribly observant themselves.
7/15/2011 11:43 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Moderator: Lololol. Actually, Teen Group has a lot of fun, as kids do at every level. A lot our adults had traumatically boring experiences in Sunday School as kids (no matter what the religion). And a lof of our families are not naturally 'joiners.' We try to incorporate art, drama, music into the curriculum to make it as engaging as possible. But I guess any Sunday School program would say that these days...
7/15/2011 11:43 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Maybe some of those older kids had been attending a more traditional church or synagogue and thus continue to identify with that?
7/15/2011 11:43 am (et) Moderator: sharon.miller said: I'm not sure if my message went through; sorry if it's a duplicate. My husband, not Jewish, is concerned that the synagogue outreach to interfaith couples will be one-sided in favor of Judaism
7/15/2011 11:45 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Sharon, perhaps synagogue IF group, for you, might just be the STARTING point for connecting with other IF families and then taking it from there beyond the synagogue walls?
7/15/2011 11:45 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: How about finding similar families and creating a space like IFFP in Atlanta, or is there one there already? You wouldn't have to rely on the synagogue at that point?
7/15/2011 11:45 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Laura: Yes, if kids have gone to Catholic church through age 10 and been confirmed, etc, they are probably more likely to keep a strong connection to Catholicism, or a specific Catholic identity. But I think Susan (interfaith raised Catholic) and I (interfaith raised Jewish) both attest to the fact that interfaith kids do feel interfaith on some level, no matter how they are raised, so joining an interfaith community allows them to explore that.
7/15/2011 11:46 am (et) Moderator: LindsayU said: I can say as someone who was raised in a single faith family, I wish I had been exposed to other faiths earlier. I have always had a desire to be educated about other faiths in order to make an educated decision. In some ways I feel like I am at a disadvantage having not had this resource growing up because it is difficult to overcome the bias of how I was raised to view the world. so I definitely think this is a great program and teens should people of all ages should be involved, even starting late
7/15/2011 11:47 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: That's very powerful Lindsay, and I wonderful attitude to feel that other religions will make your faith stronger, no matter what it ends up to be.
7/15/2011 11:47 am (et) Moderator: sharon.miller said: Laura, yes, I will need to do research to see if there's a synagogue with an existing IF group. Right now the JCC organizes most of the interfaith programs. 7/15/2011 11:47 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Sharon: Your husband is right, it will be one-sided, but as Laura was saying, you could meet other couples, and they might also be seeking something more balanced. I do not know of a group in Atlanta yet, but there would be plenty of families there if someone (hint hint) wants to start up a group. Our group started when moms met through their children, some groups are started by young couples who don't even have kids yet.
7/15/2011 11:47 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Interesting comment, Lindsay. I too can identify
7/15/2011 11:47 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Wish everyone felt that way!
7/15/2011 11:49 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I agree with Lindsay! I was originally raised Lutheran but I knew at a young age I didn't believe. However I wish I had been exposed to more outside, not simply for the educational or spiritual value, but to teach younger kids that there's more out there than we could possibly know.
7/15/2011 11:49 am (et) adambriddell: private message to Moderator: logs off on 7/15/2011 11:49 am (et).
7/15/2011 11:50 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I think even being part of a community like IFFP lets kids know its ok to look outside of one. Although it focuses on Christianity and Judaism, I am sure it is implied that children are allowed to explore.
7/15/2011 11:51 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Maybe even encourages it
7/15/2011 11:51 am (et) Moderator: Betty said: Where can you find more information on your group?
7/15/2011 11:51 am (et) Moderator: IFFP has a website www.iffp.net
7/15/2011 11:52 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: If it were up to me, I would send every kid to religious education at a UU church where they can learn about all religions but be indoctrinated into none of them. I find that to be the ideal approach.
7/15/2011 11:52 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Lindsay: yes! Sharron: It does take a lot of work to start up a group, but it is tremendously rewarding. The JCC would work fine to meet others, it might even be more balanced than some synagogues, just reassure your husand that you are seeking balance, and will go into it ready to ask questions and learn and meet people but with your own agenda, if that's the case.
7/15/2011 11:53 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I feel like that could be alright for certain children. I feel like it takes a specific type of person and a wonderful education to take that idea and make it into an identity.
7/15/2011 11:53 am (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: Time and again in the InterFaith Conference and elsewhere, people have discovered that engaging in interfaith dialogue and collaboration deepens their faith
7/15/2011 11:53 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Where do you find the most overlap, Sue?
7/15/2011 11:53 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: This has been my favorite discussion to read, thanks for coming in Ms. Miller!
7/15/2011 11:54 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: I blog about our community, and about interfaith identity more broadly, at onbeingboth.com. I have a lot of UU folks following me on twitter now, we definitely have a lot of shared perspectives.
7/15/2011 11:54 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I imagine there are more Jews who are in an IF marriage than Christians. Thus why synagogues tend to have more IF groups than you would find in any church
7/15/2011 11:55 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I'm not so sure about that, Laura. I mean I know many Catholic churches have a programs on the topic as well.
7/15/2011 11:55 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: Thanks Hussong! Laura: Yes, in terms of percentage, Jewish institutions feel understandably overwhelmed by intermarriage, whereas it doesn't much bother much Christian institutions for statistical reasons.
7/15/2011 11:56 am (et) Moderator: sharon.miller said: Thanks everyone for the encouragement. I will try to find one or two more people willing to take on the challenge of starting some kind of ongoing community group. I welcome recommendations!
7/15/2011 11:56 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Sue, do you also have families that are Catholic-Protestant (ecumenical) rather than simply Christian-Jewish?
7/15/2011 11:56 am (et) Moderator: clarkifc said: As Laura knows, about 50% of Jews marry someone from another faith or of no faith. I believe its even higher in the DC area.
7/15/2011 11:56 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: The Chicago area has a lot of outreach to Catholic/Jewish couples, sponsored by the Catholic church, because of a history of intermarriage in a city where Jews and Catholics have long lived side-by-side.
7/15/2011 11:57 am (et) Moderator: Hi All, So it is almost time to get going, I know this week's chat has flown by! So please finish up any thoughts/comments!
7/15/2011 11:58 am (et) Sue Katz Miller: I have really enjoyed this discussion! Hop over to Huffington Post Religion if you want to continue, I have a post up there today about the role of interfaith children in interfaith dialogue...
7/15/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Also, in doing research on this topic and for those who might be interested, the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace, and World Affairs put out a report on the topic of Interreligious Marriage, go to http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/
7/15/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker please contact me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. Next week we will be discussing ‘Religious Liberty from a Roman Catholic Perspective,’ with Fr. Avelino Gonzalez, Director of Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs in the Archdiocese of Washington.
7/15/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
7/15/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org and sign up for our bi-monthly e-newsletter by emailing me, again the address is rebeccac@ifcmw.org.

Friday, July 8, 2011

Values

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xrP3tph-j4

7/8/2011 10:44 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 7/8/2011 10:44 am (et).
7/8/2011 10:45 am (et) Br1an: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/8/2011 10:45 am (et).
7/8/2011 10:46 am (et) Mary: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/8/2011 10:46 am (et).
7/8/2011 10:47 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/8/2011 10:47 am (et).
7/8/2011 10:48 am (et) Christa: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/8/2011 10:48 am (et).
7/8/2011 10:57 am (et) JoyceD: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/8/2011 10:57 am (et).
7/8/2011 10:59 am (et) DC Rao: logs in on 7/8/2011 10:59 am (et).
7/8/2011 11:00 am (et) Hussong: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/8/2011 11:00 am (et).
7/8/2011 11:00 am (et) Tom Wolfe: logs in on 7/8/2011 11:00 am (et).
7/8/2011 11:00 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
7/8/2011 11:01 am (et) Moderator: Today, we will be discussing values with Tom Wolfe, Quaker member of IFC’s Board and Chair of IFC’s Center for Nurturing Understanding, and D.C. Rao, Hindu member of IFC’s Board, both of which have been instrumental in the creation of IFC’s second supplement to the Teaching About Religion Notebook Project on Values. The reflection is provided by Michael Turner, a Baha’i member of IFC’s Board, who unfortunately could not be with us today.
7/8/2011 11:01 am (et) Iris Firemoon: private message to Moderator: logs in on 7/8/2011 11:01 am (et).
7/8/2011 11:01 am (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
7/8/2011 11:01 am (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues.
7/8/2011 11:06 am (et) Moderator: Just to give everyone a little background on this topic. IFC has just published its second supplement to the Teaching About Religions Notebook Project. This one is on Values, so it asks members of IFC's 11 constituent traditions to explain its own core values.
7/8/2011 11:09 am (et) DC Rao: each of the 11 religinos was asked to state the values that were most important for them, in their own words and in their chosen format. the result is the Supplement on Values to the basic publication on Teaching About religion.
7/8/2011 11:10 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: I think the Golden Rule as it is usually worded does not take into account that not all people want or need the same things.
7/8/2011 11:11 am (et) Tom Wolfe: I have the InterFaith Conference Values Supplement in front of me and am struck by the nobility of the values of each of the 11 Faiths. I belive our challenge in this modern time is to build respect for all of these noble Faiths.
7/8/2011 11:11 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Would forming the Golden Rule in negative terms be more appropriate?
7/8/2011 11:12 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: I think that's a great goal!
7/8/2011 11:12 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Not the negative terms, but the building respect for all faiths.
7/8/2011 11:13 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Joyce: There are undoubtably differences so Do unto others will mean empathy for their needs and traditions not just what we think they would want. This is perhpoars the greatest value of the Teaching About Religion projest we do..it makes it easier to respect the Faiths through knowing a bit about what they say about themselves.
7/8/2011 11:13 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I just mean we usually hear it as do unto others as you have them do unto you, but what about dont do to others what you wouldnt want done to you
7/8/2011 11:13 am (et) DC Rao: all the world's major religions have the golden rule inone wording or the other. the fct remains that it is hard for us to know what someone else REALLY wants or needs. a good starting point is whether we would want that for ourselves. if we strive to provide that for others we are extending to them our love; and, at a minimum, we are not focused on doing them harm.
7/8/2011 11:14 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: It is important to hear what they have to say. As Michael Turner said we all agree to say Justice, but what it means may vary
7/8/2011 11:15 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: I don't have the IFCMW Values Supplement, but I have Oneness by Jeffrey Moses which gives a list of similar values among religions.
7/8/2011 11:16 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Joyce: I have that book too its a great little book that shows how close some of the values are between Faiths.
7/8/2011 11:17 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: How does one help someone see that they are not living by their values when they say they are religious? The Socratic method?
7/8/2011 11:17 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: That seems to be the best way...to lead them into a contradiction
7/8/2011 11:17 am (et) Moderator: Iris Firemoon said: As to the question posed about how we make values global values, I think it would be difficult to come to a consensus what global values should be. I could imagine that a symposium on the matter of shared values would include a lot of folks who feel that their values are more important than other people's values. How do we discuss global values and remove the ego or self-interest?
7/8/2011 11:18 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Joyce: I have found one way is to uphold whatever values they are expressing...search for knowledge etc.
7/8/2011 11:19 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Iris, I went to the International Peace Conference in Den Hague and it was very informative about the needs and problems of different countries.
7/8/2011 11:20 am (et) DC Rao: joyce: i too think the best way is to live the fvalues ourselves and leave it to others to learn what they can from our behaviour.
7/8/2011 11:20 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: But the mentality of the countries is different too...I mean the US has a very pull yourself up by the bootstraps idea...and I feel like that can get in the way, but I am not sure about other cultures
7/8/2011 11:21 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Iris Firemoon ...what a great name. I am convinced that the core work of each of these Faiths was originally to remove the ego. I have found in my seeking tht there are fundamentally three ways that have been taught to remove the ego: The path of Knowledge, the path of Service, and the path of Love. So I always look for one or more of these three in InterFaith challenges.
7/8/2011 11:21 am (et) DC Rao: i prefer to focus on what I can do rather than on what others OUGHT to do
7/8/2011 11:22 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: I, too, am very disappointed in what our country does since being a good example is a good way to pass on values.
7/8/2011 11:22 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: So it seems difficult to get people to act together when they have different ideas on how to go about it...we all seem to want something like Justice but have different ideas on how to implement it
7/8/2011 11:22 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Amen to letting Your Life Speak which is one of our Quaker values.
7/8/2011 11:23 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes, I find too much of the evangelization culture is talk...if you wish to witness, live it.
7/8/2011 11:23 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: I guess we can appreciate others when they do.
7/8/2011 11:24 am (et) Tom Wolfe: We have a Quaker saying about that ...If your work speaks for itself...don't interrupt
7/8/2011 11:24 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Positive reinforcement.
7/8/2011 11:24 am (et) DC Rao: while we can all agree that justice is a good value, it is notriously hard to define what justice is in a particular situation.
7/8/2011 11:25 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Tom, I don't know if I understand
7/8/2011 11:25 am (et) Moderator: end of comment: 'Don't interrupt'
7/8/2011 11:26 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Justice can begin with seeing the divinity within each person which is listed as the first value in the Hindu chapter in the InterFaith Conference Values Supplement
7/8/2011 11:27 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: ut Tom, don't we then get into issues with some of the Reformed Christian traditions who believe man is depraved (and this is my little knowledge of those groups so sorry if it is wrong)?
7/8/2011 11:27 am (et) Tom Wolfe: The don't interrupt means you focus on your work like DC said rather than having to say what others ought to be doing.
7/8/2011 11:27 am (et) DC Rao: how about those who ride on white horses dispensing justice?!
7/8/2011 11:28 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: What do you mean DC?
7/8/2011 11:29 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Namaste. I think that's an excellent value.
7/8/2011 11:29 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Oh my sister moderator there will be many difficult challenges to this unity work..the idea that humans are depraved as core theology is one of them. This focus on what is wrong with others (or all of us!) leads to very stringent right and wrong impressions...very hard to overcome.
7/8/2011 11:29 am (et) DC Rao: some are very sure about what justice means and what shuold be done to achieve it. problem is that others might not agree, not because they are opposed to justice itself.
7/8/2011 11:30 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: So these different opinions, how do we overcome them?
7/8/2011 11:31 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: So that we can work to promote these values?
7/8/2011 11:31 am (et) DC Rao: susan: even in criminal or civil law which is so painstakingly defined, we can see how hard it si for jsutice to be done. so my lesson is that we should be exceptinally humble when pronounce on what justice means.
7/8/2011 11:32 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: The Westboro Baptist Church has been dealt with well with an over-abundance of peace lovers being a respectful, loving presence.
7/8/2011 11:32 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Sorry Joyce, but what/where is the Westboro Church?
7/8/2011 11:32 am (et) Tom Wolfe: With very developed listening that builds relationship in respect before trying to change the other person's beliefs or feelings about life or what the spirit of justice is. I believe so much of this is us educating ourselves as to ways to attempt making this change happen. We need to practice practice practice and respect objections as hard as that may prove to be.
7/8/2011 11:33 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Fred Phelps' family pickets funerals of the military.
7/8/2011 11:34 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ahh, ok I saw that on the news, just didn't realize that was the name...
7/8/2011 11:35 am (et) Moderator: Christa said: If international law is looked at as a means for facilitating communication and relationships between states is seems that interreligioun diaogue the way we have here may suffice to bridge gaps of understanding to better understand what things like justice mean to other peoples
7/8/2011 11:35 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I understand wanting to be loving and accepting, but it is hard to respect when someone does something so blantantly against your values. I mean I get not wanting to support war, but I do find it hard to accept someone who is picketing a funeral.
7/8/2011 11:36 am (et) DC Rao: realproblems arise when we face a conflict between two good values and have to choose between them. peole can differ on how they make that choice.
7/8/2011 11:37 am (et) Tom Wolfe: I know a great listener whose lesson is how to respect folks who we find difficult is ...God does not make any junk. he has taught me to keep this in mind when the going gets tough and look for how the opinion makes sense to the person though perhaps not to me.
7/8/2011 11:37 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: "Standing on the Side of Love" is the relatively new Unitarian Universalist justice campaign. Does that sound universal?
7/8/2011 11:38 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Tom, I agree - understanding each other is a good first step.
7/8/2011 11:38 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Yes Let Us see what Love can do! is a great fallback position when dialogue goes south.
7/8/2011 11:40 am (et) DC Rao: i must confess to a problem. i wonder if any word is more misused than 'love'.
7/8/2011 11:40 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Seeking to Understand, before being understood is a core value
7/8/2011 11:40 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: But when their decisions affect you, it is hard to just let go
7/8/2011 11:40 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Environmental action for one, yes it does matetr to me whether someone is conscious of their effect
7/8/2011 11:41 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: DC, do you think love means different things to different people?
7/8/2011 11:41 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Ah but the misuse of the word Love annot touch the glory of the thing itself.
7/8/2011 11:41 am (et) DC Rao: joyce: not that so much. but people mask their true agenda with the word 'love'.
7/8/2011 11:42 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: DC, yes, I understand that.
7/8/2011 11:42 am (et) Tom Wolfe: I am certain the folks at Westboro would say they are protesting about gay folk out of Love for their souls.
7/8/2011 11:43 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Exactly, people have different views of love, and I think the problem comes because we can't approach the true glory as you said Tom.
7/8/2011 11:43 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Again the stringent right wrong that I hold could be traced partially to a core belief in the sin sick soul needing 'my' religion to heal.
7/8/2011 11:44 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: DC, are you familiar with the "Standing on the Side of Love" campaign? Do you think that is misuse?
7/8/2011 11:44 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Joyce would you mind telling us about it, I am not familiar with it?
7/8/2011 11:45 am (et) DC Rao: i believe words like 'respect' and 'understand' promote more honesty than the word 'love' in discourse.
7/8/2011 11:45 am (et) DC Rao: joyce: i am sorry, i do not know about the'standing on the side of love campaign.
7/8/2011 11:45 am (et) Tom Wolfe: My apologies what is the Standing on the Side of Love campaighn.
7/8/2011 11:46 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: DC, I agree about 'respect' and 'understand' in discourse, but love works better in other circumstances.
7/8/2011 11:47 am (et) DC Rao: in reality, 'love' always works better! i just get suspicious when it is used in discourse.
7/8/2011 11:48 am (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I think the Westboro Church actually protests not out of "love for their souls" but out of true hatred for the existence. I saw a video yesterday about one family who excommunicated their daughter because she didn't agree to their scriptural ideology.
7/8/2011 11:48 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Standing on the Side of Love: http://www.standingonthesideoflove.org/
7/8/2011 11:48 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: It promotes love of oppressed people (lgbt, immigrants, etc.).
7/8/2011 11:49 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Joyce it's true, how many denominations would condemn such action?
7/8/2011 11:49 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: too many unfortunately
7/8/2011 11:50 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Homosexuality is one of the tough topics.
7/8/2011 11:50 am (et) DC Rao: the hatred arises from a lack of respect for diversity, an assurance that WE have the TRUTH
7/8/2011 11:50 am (et) Tom Wolfe: And we have God's truth too!!!
7/8/2011 11:51 am (et) Tom Wolfe: So our work of respect has and will help relive this suffering based on making others 'wrong'
7/8/2011 11:51 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: It doesn't seem possible to actually have God's entire truth, but I guess most don't recognize that...
7/8/2011 11:52 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: The books of 'God's truth' are interpretted quite differently by different religions - like about homosexuality.
7/8/2011 11:52 am (et) Tom Wolfe: God according to the Qur'an is beyond anything we can say about Him.
7/8/2011 11:52 am (et) Tom Wolfe: or her
7/8/2011 11:53 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: I'm glad you added 'or her'.
7/8/2011 11:53 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ah, but if God is beyond words, is he or she a good pronoun? haha, sorry sidetrack
7/8/2011 11:53 am (et) DC Rao: how come some peole are so sure they know what God thinks?
7/8/2011 11:54 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: True, Susan.
7/8/2011 11:54 am (et) Tom Wolfe: My experience is that the truly tough prejudices leave only through that difficult word love..and the big change comes when people get to know those whose their leaders say they shoud hate//get to know them in person. Sometiimes this takes jsut laws to make happen.
7/8/2011 11:54 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ego?
7/8/2011 11:54 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: DC, Faith is blind.
7/8/2011 11:54 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Or it can be.
7/8/2011 11:55 am (et) DC Rao: in sanskrit, there are three words used for the Supreme,: neuter, masculine and fminine genders.
7/8/2011 11:56 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Susan: I believe God is both genders in form and in the formless state beyond both genders.
7/8/2011 11:56 am (et) DC Rao: Joyce: if faith is blind, how can one rely on it?
7/8/2011 11:56 am (et) Moderator: Susan said: I think it is because we have to, at the core of everything is faith...otherwise we'd be sitting in a bubble
7/8/2011 11:57 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Hatred cease by love alone, this is eternal law...The Dhammapada from Buddha
7/8/2011 11:57 am (et) DC Rao: knwing that other religins have decent values should reduce the extent to which peole suspect other religions.
7/8/2011 11:58 am (et) Moderator: Ok All, we will be wrapping up in 3 minutes, so if you have some thoughts to finish up, please do!
7/8/2011 11:58 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: The atheist often believes in free will even though there is no scientific proof, because it would be intolerant to live without that belief.
7/8/2011 11:58 am (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: I meant 'intolerable'.
7/8/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker or are interested in the Teaching About Religion (TAR) program or books (which are available through IFC) you can email tarlessonplans@gmail.com. Next week we will hear from Sue Katz Miller, blogger (www.onbeingboth.com) and Rev. Julia Jarvis, IFC Assembly member and Spiritual Director of the Interfaith Families Project of Greater Washington (www.iffp.net) on ‘Being Both: The Interfaith Experience.’
7/8/2011 11:59 am (et) Tom Wolfe: Please to join us in this work of builing on respect for folks who are different. Keep in touch at TARlessonplans@gmail.com for the evolution of these teaching materials. Our next Supplement is on the common value of caring for the enviroment. Respect and Understanding to all...and Love too!!!
7/8/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
7/8/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org and sign up for our bi-monthly e-newsletter by emailing me, again the address is rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
7/8/2011 12:00 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Thank you moderator
7/8/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: JoyceD said: Let's go and spread our Love.
7/8/2011 12:01 pm (et) DC Rao: joyce:what a lovely thought
7/8/2011 12:01 pm (et) Tom Wolfe: Namaste Now must go
7/8/2011 12:02 pm (et) DC Rao: to all: God be with you!