Thursday, December 22, 2011

Women in Islam

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLRk9Z2BRYc

12/22/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: logs in on 12/22/2011 12:40 pm (et).
12/22/2011 12:52 pm (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/22/2011 12:52 pm (et).
12/22/2011 12:55 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: logs in on 12/22/2011 12:55 pm (et).
12/22/2011 1:00 pm (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. Let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
12/22/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘Women in Islam’ with Ms. Farhanahz Ellis, Interfaith and Outreach Director at All Dulles Area Muslim Society (ADAMS) and Chaplain at George Mason University
12/22/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
12/22/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it leads to some issues.
12/22/2011 1:04 pm (et) ELYAA: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/22/2011 1:04 pm (et).
12/22/2011 1:05 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: logs in on 12/22/2011 1:05 pm (et).
12/22/2011 1:11 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Muslims believe the story of Adam and Eve too, correct? It is a large part of Catholic thinking on women, and anthropology in general, is there the same interest in that story as a basis?
12/22/2011 1:12 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Yes, the story of Father Adam and Mother Eve are part of Islam.
12/22/2011 1:13 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: The main difference is that in the Islamic narrative, there's no original sin.
12/22/2011 1:14 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: And it is the basis of the creation of humanity.
12/22/2011 1:17 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: So Catholic thought, especially since John Paul II, has looked to the creation as a source of man and woman's complementarity, is there some similar scholarship in Islam?
12/22/2011 1:17 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Good job, Farhanahz!
12/22/2011 1:18 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Yes, Susan. In Islam male and female are not superior or inferior one to the other. We are not even the same. We're complimentary.
12/22/2011 1:18 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Why do you thinkn that so many of us have views of women in Islam?
12/22/2011 1:19 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: that is negative views!
12/22/2011 1:20 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Men are protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend to support them from their means.)
12/22/2011 1:20 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Perhaps those views come from assumptions that have a possible base in culture, but not in the religion itself.
12/22/2011 1:20 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Well, why hijab? I have always wondered why that is a sign of modesty
12/22/2011 1:21 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: logs in on 12/22/2011 1:21 pm (et).
12/22/2011 1:21 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: With that quote, I have always wondered why it says "one of them to excel the other" and is not more especific.
12/22/2011 1:23 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: People forget the culture at the time of the revelation. Perhaps we can get together in another occassion and talk about it a little bit more.
12/22/2011 1:23 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: I'd say it is because we have the human tendency to choose the worst examples when we want to put down someone or some thing and the best examples when we want to lift somebody or something up!
12/22/2011 1:24 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And what do you say to the people who do say that it is Islam? I mean it seems that those countries that do oppress women point to Islam, they say 'it's our religion'.
12/22/2011 1:24 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Suzan, Have you ever seen Virgin Mary in a movie without headscarf?
12/22/2011 1:24 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: But that may be a chicken and egg issue, because it does not answer why so many want to see Islam in a negative light.
12/22/2011 1:24 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: There are quite a lot of Muslim women who don't wear the veil; but of course we'll never know because we can't identify them.
12/22/2011 1:25 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: or any pictures for her
12/22/2011 1:25 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: That is very true, and for a long period of history it was customary for women to cover their heads in Church as well, I believe that really changed with Vatican II....
12/22/2011 1:25 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I guess that is also a cultural misunderstanding.
12/22/2011 1:26 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: I wonder if the way people hold to that missunderstanding is becuase at some level is comfortable for them.
12/22/2011 1:27 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Oops, I meant "because".
12/22/2011 1:27 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I think it is easier, it takes effort to put oneself in another's shoes.
12/22/2011 1:28 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: But still, how do you suggest changing views of women in Islam?
12/22/2011 1:28 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Knowledge can cure "almost" everything.
12/22/2011 1:29 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And I guess a ringing question in the back of my mind is have you seen the new TV show 'All-American Muslim'? And if so, what do think? Is that giving people knowledge?
12/22/2011 1:29 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: The people that yells and rants against Islam the most, surely are the ones that have never taken the time to really meet a Muslim.
12/22/2011 1:29 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: yes i agree
12/22/2011 1:29 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: yes i agree , we need knowledge
12/22/2011 1:30 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: First, a disclaimer: Watched the first episode and did not like it. With that been said. We Muslims run the whole gamuth and the show proves that to certain extent.
12/22/2011 1:31 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Elyaa, are you also a Muslim? What do you think?
12/22/2011 1:33 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Yes, i am, do you mean abut All American Muslim show?
12/22/2011 1:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes, they seem to address stereotypes, so I was wondering if you felt they did a good job of that?
12/22/2011 1:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Farhanahz, you seem to hold a convincing position both as a Director at ADAMS and a Chaplain at George Mason, are people surprised when they meet you?
12/22/2011 1:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Also, breaking down stereoypes.
12/22/2011 1:34 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Oh God, yes they are, LOL
12/22/2011 1:35 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: The first comment I hear is "But you don't look like a Muslim"
12/22/2011 1:35 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: I have some observations, but by the end, there is some Benefits
12/22/2011 1:36 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Perhaps because a 6 feet, assertive, Black, Hispanic, educated, opinionated woman is not the "usual" figure,
12/22/2011 1:36 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I would love to them, Elyaa, we all think we are being so educated watching these shows, but it is great to hear an 'inside' perspective.
12/22/2011 1:37 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Oh , that was an ayah from the holy Quran
12/22/2011 1:38 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: [4:34] from the Holy Quran
12/22/2011 1:39 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ahhh, I am sorry, I have had some classes on Islam, but am no great scholar!
12/22/2011 1:39 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Don't worry, Susan. Neither am I.
12/22/2011 1:40 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: That's ok, ....This verse emphasizes that the financial and moral responsibilities of a household is the husband's responsibility
12/22/2011 1:41 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Many people missunderstand it
12/22/2011 1:41 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Do either of you ever feel somehow offended by those people who do use Islam as a reason to oppress women?
12/22/2011 1:42 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: I don't know if offended is the word I would use.
12/22/2011 1:43 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: I feel sorry if they use that excuse out of ignorance. and scared if out of trickery. Scared because when their moment to pay for it comes, and it will surely come, it won't be pretty!
12/22/2011 1:44 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: No human being has the right to abuse any creation of God. And that's enough for me!
12/22/2011 1:44 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: I feel sorry for them, because they did not follow the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did not learn anything from it
12/22/2011 1:44 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Or if someone insinuates that Islam is an oppressive force? I mean, there are plenty of people who think the Catholic Church is unfair to women because of pro-life issues and that they can't be priests, and sometimes it is just exhausting trying to really figure it all out.
12/22/2011 1:46 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: The people that presents those arguments to me, are bound to have a heck of a time. I know what I talk about and on top of that I'm a lawyer.
12/22/2011 1:46 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And not only that, but it takes a strong viewpoint to be able to resist those arguments, what about children who have to hear these things?
12/22/2011 1:46 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: So if you are not more than well prepare for the argument, I rather you sit down!
12/22/2011 1:46 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Noted: don't argue with Farhanahz
12/22/2011 1:47 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: ROTFLMHO
12/22/2011 1:48 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: If you want to oppress somebody, even the phone book will help if you twist it.
12/22/2011 1:50 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Why do think it has fallen on women, though? You mention cultural reasons, but are there places in scripture or in the oral tradition that contribute if read in a specific light
12/22/2011 1:51 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: And that's the problem. When we use the scripture isolated of the rest of the revelation and without the history surrounding it.
12/22/2011 1:52 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Like the portion Elyaa mentioned, is that misunderstood as a tool to oppress women?
12/22/2011 1:52 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: One of few.
12/22/2011 1:53 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Sorry its so slow today! Usually its busier than this. And its a 'hot' topic, too! Too close to Christmas and other winter holidays, I think.
12/22/2011 1:53 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Actually, I've like the "cozy" environment just the few of us.
12/22/2011 1:53 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Well, I got my questions answered and enjoyed it, so thank you for having it!
12/22/2011 1:54 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Thank you for participating and thank you Elyaa too.
12/22/2011 1:54 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: And to the IFC and Rebecca and Clark.
12/22/2011 1:55 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Yes i agree, The Holy Quran come to support women in many many ayah
12/22/2011 1:55 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Thank for you too
12/22/2011 1:55 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I have one last question, you mentioned that education of children is a woman's place, how do you go about ensuring that children are well aware of the true place of women in Islam?
12/22/2011 1:56 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: By educating our Sisters first. You can't demand your rights if you don't know them. You can't share knowledge if you don't have it.
12/22/2011 1:57 pm (et) Moderator: We have just a couple of minutes remaining, so please finish any last comments.
12/22/2011 1:58 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Perhaps, Farhanahz and Elyaa, you could point us to a specific ayah supporting women to end this chat on a wonderful note.
12/22/2011 2:00 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: I love the saying of Prophet Muhammed where he says that "Paradise is at the feet of the mother". Perhaps because I'm a Mum?
12/22/2011 2:00 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Qur'an 3:195 I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other.
12/22/2011 2:00 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Those are beautiful, thank you.
12/22/2011 2:00 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to contact or guest, please contact me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me.
12/22/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: This moderated chat room is just one example of the many programs which the InterFaith Conference is doing. If you are able and willing to financially support the InterFaith Conference’s vital year-round work, please donate now using the donate button on our website – www.ifcmw.org. You can also find out more about us and sign up for our bi-monthly newsletter.
12/22/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: After this chat, the chatroom will be on hiatus until the first week in February, when a new moderator will be taking over. Keep your eyes on IFC’s website, www.ifcmw.org, for more information on the return. Happy Holidays!
12/22/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Qur'an 2:226 And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women.

Women in Islam

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLRk9Z2BRYc

12/22/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: logs in on 12/22/2011 12:40 pm (et).
12/22/2011 12:52 pm (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/22/2011 12:52 pm (et).
12/22/2011 12:55 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: logs in on 12/22/2011 12:55 pm (et).
12/22/2011 1:00 pm (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. Let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
12/22/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘Women in Islam’ with Ms. Farhanahz Ellis, Interfaith and Outreach Director at All Dulles Area Muslim Society (ADAMS) and Chaplain at George Mason University
12/22/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
12/22/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it leads to some issues.
12/22/2011 1:04 pm (et) ELYAA: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/22/2011 1:04 pm (et).
12/22/2011 1:05 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: logs in on 12/22/2011 1:05 pm (et).
12/22/2011 1:11 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Muslims believe the story of Adam and Eve too, correct? It is a large part of Catholic thinking on women, and anthropology in general, is there the same interest in that story as a basis?
12/22/2011 1:12 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Yes, the story of Father Adam and Mother Eve are part of Islam.
12/22/2011 1:13 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: The main difference is that in the Islamic narrative, there's no original sin.
12/22/2011 1:14 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: And it is the basis of the creation of humanity.
12/22/2011 1:17 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: So Catholic thought, especially since John Paul II, has looked to the creation as a source of man and woman's complementarity, is there some similar scholarship in Islam?
12/22/2011 1:17 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Good job, Farhanahz!
12/22/2011 1:18 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Yes, Susan. In Islam male and female are not superior or inferior one to the other. We are not even the same. We're complimentary.
12/22/2011 1:18 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Why do you thinkn that so many of us have views of women in Islam?
12/22/2011 1:19 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: that is negative views!
12/22/2011 1:20 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Men are protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend to support them from their means.)
12/22/2011 1:20 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Perhaps those views come from assumptions that have a possible base in culture, but not in the religion itself.
12/22/2011 1:20 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Well, why hijab? I have always wondered why that is a sign of modesty
12/22/2011 1:21 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: logs in on 12/22/2011 1:21 pm (et).
12/22/2011 1:21 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: With that quote, I have always wondered why it says "one of them to excel the other" and is not more especific.
12/22/2011 1:23 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: People forget the culture at the time of the revelation. Perhaps we can get together in another occassion and talk about it a little bit more.
12/22/2011 1:23 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: I'd say it is because we have the human tendency to choose the worst examples when we want to put down someone or some thing and the best examples when we want to lift somebody or something up!
12/22/2011 1:24 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And what do you say to the people who do say that it is Islam? I mean it seems that those countries that do oppress women point to Islam, they say 'it's our religion'.
12/22/2011 1:24 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Suzan, Have you ever seen Virgin Mary in a movie without headscarf?
12/22/2011 1:24 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: But that may be a chicken and egg issue, because it does not answer why so many want to see Islam in a negative light.
12/22/2011 1:24 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: There are quite a lot of Muslim women who don't wear the veil; but of course we'll never know because we can't identify them.
12/22/2011 1:25 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: or any pictures for her
12/22/2011 1:25 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: That is very true, and for a long period of history it was customary for women to cover their heads in Church as well, I believe that really changed with Vatican II....
12/22/2011 1:25 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I guess that is also a cultural misunderstanding.
12/22/2011 1:26 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: I wonder if the way people hold to that missunderstanding is becuase at some level is comfortable for them.
12/22/2011 1:27 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Oops, I meant "because".
12/22/2011 1:27 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I think it is easier, it takes effort to put oneself in another's shoes.
12/22/2011 1:28 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: But still, how do you suggest changing views of women in Islam?
12/22/2011 1:28 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Knowledge can cure "almost" everything.
12/22/2011 1:29 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And I guess a ringing question in the back of my mind is have you seen the new TV show 'All-American Muslim'? And if so, what do think? Is that giving people knowledge?
12/22/2011 1:29 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: The people that yells and rants against Islam the most, surely are the ones that have never taken the time to really meet a Muslim.
12/22/2011 1:29 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: yes i agree
12/22/2011 1:29 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: yes i agree , we need knowledge
12/22/2011 1:30 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: First, a disclaimer: Watched the first episode and did not like it. With that been said. We Muslims run the whole gamuth and the show proves that to certain extent.
12/22/2011 1:31 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Elyaa, are you also a Muslim? What do you think?
12/22/2011 1:33 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Yes, i am, do you mean abut All American Muslim show?
12/22/2011 1:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes, they seem to address stereotypes, so I was wondering if you felt they did a good job of that?
12/22/2011 1:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Farhanahz, you seem to hold a convincing position both as a Director at ADAMS and a Chaplain at George Mason, are people surprised when they meet you?
12/22/2011 1:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Also, breaking down stereoypes.
12/22/2011 1:34 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Oh God, yes they are, LOL
12/22/2011 1:35 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: The first comment I hear is "But you don't look like a Muslim"
12/22/2011 1:35 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: I have some observations, but by the end, there is some Benefits
12/22/2011 1:36 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Perhaps because a 6 feet, assertive, Black, Hispanic, educated, opinionated woman is not the "usual" figure,
12/22/2011 1:36 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I would love to them, Elyaa, we all think we are being so educated watching these shows, but it is great to hear an 'inside' perspective.
12/22/2011 1:37 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Oh , that was an ayah from the holy Quran
12/22/2011 1:38 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: [4:34] from the Holy Quran
12/22/2011 1:39 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Ahhh, I am sorry, I have had some classes on Islam, but am no great scholar!
12/22/2011 1:39 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Don't worry, Susan. Neither am I.
12/22/2011 1:40 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: That's ok, ....This verse emphasizes that the financial and moral responsibilities of a household is the husband's responsibility
12/22/2011 1:41 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Many people missunderstand it
12/22/2011 1:41 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Do either of you ever feel somehow offended by those people who do use Islam as a reason to oppress women?
12/22/2011 1:42 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: I don't know if offended is the word I would use.
12/22/2011 1:43 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: I feel sorry if they use that excuse out of ignorance. and scared if out of trickery. Scared because when their moment to pay for it comes, and it will surely come, it won't be pretty!
12/22/2011 1:44 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: No human being has the right to abuse any creation of God. And that's enough for me!
12/22/2011 1:44 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: I feel sorry for them, because they did not follow the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did not learn anything from it
12/22/2011 1:44 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Or if someone insinuates that Islam is an oppressive force? I mean, there are plenty of people who think the Catholic Church is unfair to women because of pro-life issues and that they can't be priests, and sometimes it is just exhausting trying to really figure it all out.
12/22/2011 1:46 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: The people that presents those arguments to me, are bound to have a heck of a time. I know what I talk about and on top of that I'm a lawyer.
12/22/2011 1:46 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And not only that, but it takes a strong viewpoint to be able to resist those arguments, what about children who have to hear these things?
12/22/2011 1:46 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: So if you are not more than well prepare for the argument, I rather you sit down!
12/22/2011 1:46 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Noted: don't argue with Farhanahz
12/22/2011 1:47 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: ROTFLMHO
12/22/2011 1:48 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: If you want to oppress somebody, even the phone book will help if you twist it.
12/22/2011 1:50 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Why do think it has fallen on women, though? You mention cultural reasons, but are there places in scripture or in the oral tradition that contribute if read in a specific light
12/22/2011 1:51 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: And that's the problem. When we use the scripture isolated of the rest of the revelation and without the history surrounding it.
12/22/2011 1:52 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Like the portion Elyaa mentioned, is that misunderstood as a tool to oppress women?
12/22/2011 1:52 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: One of few.
12/22/2011 1:53 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Sorry its so slow today! Usually its busier than this. And its a 'hot' topic, too! Too close to Christmas and other winter holidays, I think.
12/22/2011 1:53 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Actually, I've like the "cozy" environment just the few of us.
12/22/2011 1:53 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Well, I got my questions answered and enjoyed it, so thank you for having it!
12/22/2011 1:54 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: Thank you for participating and thank you Elyaa too.
12/22/2011 1:54 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: And to the IFC and Rebecca and Clark.
12/22/2011 1:55 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Yes i agree, The Holy Quran come to support women in many many ayah
12/22/2011 1:55 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Thank for you too
12/22/2011 1:55 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I have one last question, you mentioned that education of children is a woman's place, how do you go about ensuring that children are well aware of the true place of women in Islam?
12/22/2011 1:56 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: By educating our Sisters first. You can't demand your rights if you don't know them. You can't share knowledge if you don't have it.
12/22/2011 1:57 pm (et) Moderator: We have just a couple of minutes remaining, so please finish any last comments.
12/22/2011 1:58 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Perhaps, Farhanahz and Elyaa, you could point us to a specific ayah supporting women to end this chat on a wonderful note.
12/22/2011 2:00 pm (et) Farhanahz Ellis: I love the saying of Prophet Muhammed where he says that "Paradise is at the feet of the mother". Perhaps because I'm a Mum?
12/22/2011 2:00 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Qur'an 3:195 I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other.
12/22/2011 2:00 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Those are beautiful, thank you.
12/22/2011 2:00 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to contact or guest, please contact me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me.
12/22/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: This moderated chat room is just one example of the many programs which the InterFaith Conference is doing. If you are able and willing to financially support the InterFaith Conference’s vital year-round work, please donate now using the donate button on our website – www.ifcmw.org. You can also find out more about us and sign up for our bi-monthly newsletter.
12/22/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: After this chat, the chatroom will be on hiatus until the first week in February, when a new moderator will be taking over. Keep your eyes on IFC’s website, www.ifcmw.org, for more information on the return. Happy Holidays!
12/22/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: ELYAA said: Qur'an 2:226 And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women.

Thursday, December 15, 2011

What a Christian Can Learn in Dialogue with Others

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2YVfdt2FsQ

12/15/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: logs in on 12/15/2011 12:45 pm (et).
12/15/2011 12:52 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: logs in on 12/15/2011 12:52 pm (et).
12/15/2011 12:58 pm (et) kierkegaard: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/15/2011 12:58 pm (et).
12/15/2011 1:01 pm (et) kristi.dale: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/15/2011 1:01 pm (et).
12/15/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. Let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
12/15/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘What a Christian can Learn in Dialogue with Others,’ with Rev. Dr. Phil Wogaman, former Chair of IFC’s Board, longtime professor and one time Dean of Wesley Seminary, former President of Interfaith Alliance, and author.
12/15/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
12/15/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it leads to some issues.
12/15/2011 1:05 pm (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/15/2011 1:05 pm (et).
12/15/2011 1:06 pm (et) Vikings1: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/15/2011 1:06 pm (et).
12/15/2011 1:10 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: How do you feel speaking about other traditions from your own? I mean that do you feel you can really get at what other traditions say since you are somewhat of an outsider?
12/15/2011 1:12 pm (et) kristi.dale: private message to Moderator: logs off on 12/15/2011 1:12 pm (et).
12/15/2011 1:13 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: A very good question, Susan. I've dealt with this in passing, noting that unless we can understand much within other religions, there's no way we can continue in dialogue. Of course, I'm not seeking to understand everything about any of the other religions--but, as I ve said, I'm attempting to "mine" a number of points at which the other religions contribute to me as a Christian.
12/15/2011 1:14 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I figure some people may even be offended by such an attempt though, I mean does it imply that there is something lacking in Christianity, something that can't be answered?
12/15/2011 1:15 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: I'll add another point: since all of these religions think of themselves as universal, that means they are all, to some extent at least, accessible to all of us--if we do our homework! Thanks again for a good question.
12/15/2011 1:17 pm (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs in on 12/15/2011 1:17 pm (et).
12/15/2011 1:17 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Is there anything lacking in Christianity? I'd rather put it this way, Christianity does not give us complete knowledge of everything. Moreover, individual Christians (such as me) can overlook important points and need correction. You'll note my comments regarding the Trinity as an example. Some insights may come to us as quite new while, at other points, an emphasis in another religion may help clarify points in our own.
12/15/2011 1:20 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Do you feel like doing something like this may down play or water down Christian tradition? You were speaking about atheism and having to somewhat play into and answer their concerns, but does that distract from anything?
12/15/2011 1:24 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Actually, my hope is that struggling to find points in other religions that enhance our own can be a way of deepening our own faith. In respect to atheism (which, as you note, I've treated as a religion, the current crop of atheists--such as Richard Dawkins--won't let us overlook points in the Bible that are alien to the deeper faith in God's love and grace. As you will note, I'm not a fundamentalist, so I'm not offended by the idea that parts of the Bible have to be re-interpreted, or in some cases even abandoned--and, far from being a threat to faith, it enhances faith.
12/15/2011 1:25 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Why do you think this is such an important task to undertake (I mean you must sinceyou've devoted the time to a book)?
12/15/2011 1:27 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I mean deepening faith always is, but why vis a vis others?
12/15/2011 1:28 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: It's a step beyond simply understanding other faiths. I believe God's presence is not exclusively experienced by Christians. In my book, I've cited John Wesley's concept of prevenient grace, which he defines as the grace of God that is present prior to an experiencing of Christ. And also noting the Vatican II document on other religions indicating that the Catholic church does not reject anything that is true and good in other faiths. I believe my book takes a step even beyond this.
12/15/2011 1:29 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: How did you go about gleaning what was of significance? Was it based on what struck you or was it more complicated?
12/15/2011 1:31 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Given the idea of universality of Truth found in other religions, how do you manage to maintain your primary religious identify as Christian? (when I discovered this idea of the universality of Truth, I could no longer make this same sort of exclusive personal identity)
12/15/2011 1:31 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: I guess we can deepen our faith vis a vis others because there is truth and goodness to be found in others. One point has become clear to me as I've wrestled with the theme of this book: in the process of seeking what is to be learned from other religions, I am also engaged in interpreting my own! As to the question of going about gleaning what is significant, that's partly subjective, of course, but it's based (in my case) on a lifetime of theological study and practice.
12/15/2011 1:32 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: That is a good question, Laura S, I mean staying as a Christian does imply a superiority in your eyes (as it does my own)
12/15/2011 1:34 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: So, maybe you can conclude your book with a chapter as to why, after all this learning from different religions, you personally remain a Christian
12/15/2011 1:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: And I mean as a Catholic, I've always seen that teaching somewhat opposite as you do. I see it as interpreting other religions in light of my own, so the inverse is interesting.
12/15/2011 1:35 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Thanks, Laura S. for another good question. I haven't found it difficult to maintain my primary identity as a Christian, but one can be broader in one's understanding of what identity means. Another illustration: my national identity is as an American, but I also identify with the world community and its political expression through the United Nations. And I find great values in the cultures and practices of a number of other nations. For instance, I'm not Swedish or Norwegian, but we sure could learn something from their commitment to universal health care! (there, I've gotten a bit political!)
12/15/2011 1:37 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Actually, Laura, I'm contemplating a final chapter about what other religions can learn from Christianity. But, of course, that's not the main point of the book. I hope this will inspire thoughtful adherents of other faiths to write about what they can learn from religions other than their own. I think of this book more as a conversation opener than closer.
12/15/2011 1:38 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: But I do think that is something to address, Laura S made a good point, many people are afraid to ask those questions and go deeper because they are afraid to lose their own identity, it may be helpful to address
12/15/2011 1:39 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Historically, from the very beginning of Christianity, it seems, the Christian faith and doctrine has been influenced by taking things from other religions - Judaism, of course, but also Greek and Roman pagan practice and mythology - putting a uniquely Christian spin on it, adopting and adapting...
12/15/2011 1:39 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Maybe you can work that historical precidence into the book
12/15/2011 1:39 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Regarding your last comment, Susan, you may be right about the Vatican II understanding of its document o other religions. But I'd suppose the many bishops had various understandings. Anyway, it was a step beyond saying that other religions are simply wrong.
12/15/2011 1:39 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes, a very helpful step, I must agree
12/15/2011 1:40 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I guess I just see it more in the 'Anonymous Christianity' tradition
12/15/2011 1:40 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: unfortunately, that Vatican II message does not seem to have gotten down to the masses
12/15/2011 1:40 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: ... at least to some of them
12/15/2011 1:41 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Yes, Laura. Perhaps some more comment about our history of taking some things from other religions would contribute. I think, for example, of the great Alexandrian thinkers, Clement and Origen, who borrowed heavily from Stoicism, along with other aspects of Greco-Roman thought.
12/15/2011 1:41 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes, truly unfortunate, the Church never has been good at communicating, but they're working on it
12/15/2011 1:42 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: We still come across many exclusivist Christians ('Christianity is the only right religion, all others are wrong' type thinking). Your book should be especially important for those types but how could we get those types to be interested enough to read it?
12/15/2011 1:44 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Your comments about getting down to the masses is a reminder that theological perceptions are often at different levels. Moreover--a point I've made in the book--every religion has multiple schools of thought and practice within it. That certainly is true of Christianity. As a United Methodist I sometimes find myself more in agreement with some adherents of other denominations and even other religions than with some fellow United Methodists. God must have a sense of humor!
12/15/2011 1:45 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Haha, I find myself in the most ardent arguments with other Catholics, so I get what you mean!
12/15/2011 1:45 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: What have you learned from from dialogue with OTHER Christians who may understanding Christian doctrine in different ways?
12/15/2011 1:45 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Is that addressed in your book at all?
12/15/2011 1:46 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Every author aspires to universal readership, especially among those who might initially disagree with much of its contents! Practically speaking, my guess is that the reach toward fundamentalists will likely be through some who are not fundamentalists but who find insights in the book that they can appropriate in conversation with fundamentalists. 12/15/2011 1:46 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: 'that' what, Susan - a Christian learning from other Christians (as well as from other religions)?
12/15/2011 1:47 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yes, I just meant if he addressed your previous question in his book at all, it may make an interesting point.
12/15/2011 1:47 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Phil, how familar are you with the work of Diana Eck?
12/15/2011 1:48 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Yes, Susan, I have touched upon that. But maybe I should say more. As for your comment, Laura, I've not attempted in the book to interact in the same way with other Christians.
12/15/2011 1:49 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: How about a preface on your early life as a Christian and what brought you to learn from other religions? When, at what age, did you begin this task of learning from what others believe? And then, when and how did you come to realize that understanding that can actually benefit you to deepen your own understanding of your own faith?
12/15/2011 1:49 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Maybe the 'What a Christian can learn from other Christians' can be a second book!
12/15/2011 1:51 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Hey! Your book might make for required reading amongst my own Christian students who take my classes on the world's religions
12/15/2011 1:51 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: Diana Eck is one of several noteworthy contemporary writers on other religions--along with, say, Huston Smith and Karen Armstrong. Without reading all of their works, I've gotten considerable insight from them. However, in my book, I've primarily relied upon primary sources (such as the Qur'an, Bagavadgita, and Dhamapada). I'm improcess of consulting with leading proponents of the various faiths dealt with in the book.
12/15/2011 1:53 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: To both of you, this process is designed to preserve your privacy, but I'd be happy to acknowledge both of you--Laura S and Susan--in my acknowledgements, if you're willing. (I expect I'll need to acknowledge help from a wide variety of sources!)
12/15/2011 1:53 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Has this project developed over a long period of time? Perhaps you can give us some insight on what brought all this about
12/15/2011 1:55 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: I've been working on it specifically for more than a year. I've been involved in interfaith dialogue and cooperative ventures for several years, but the idea for this particular book occurred to me last fall when I was serving as interim dean of the Claremont School of Theology. You may have noted that that school has embarked on a new venture in interreligious theological education with the development of the Claremont Lincoln University.
12/15/2011 1:56 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Do you find you are offering a new venture in your book? I mean I don't know of anyone attempting a project like this, but did you come across any?
12/15/2011 1:57 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: A couple months ago I saw a piece on Religion & Ethics Newsweekly about an interfaith theological school (don't recall which school it was but can research it)
12/15/2011 1:57 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: I'll add that my various interreligious involvements, along with the Claremont stint, have provided concrete evidence of insights to be gained from other religions. And also helped me overcome any number of misconceptions.
12/15/2011 1:58 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: I didn't seem that particular Religion and Ethics Newsweekly, but I'd guess it was about the Claremont school.
12/15/2011 1:58 pm (et) Moderator: We have just a couple of minutes, are there any more questions? Rev. Wogaman, would you like to add any concluding comments/
12/15/2011 1:59 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: As to your last question, Susan, there are aspects of this kind of venture that appear in dialogues and in books about world religions. But I don't know of others that aim directly at this target.
12/15/2011 2:00 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Ah, that piece at R&E WAS on Claremont! (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/october-21-2011/multifaith-theological-education/9768/)
12/15/2011 2:00 pm (et) Phil Wogaman: My thanks. I hope this will contribute to a broader, deeper sense of our human commonalities.
12/15/2011 2:00 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. Next week our topic will be ‘Women in Islam’ with Ms. Farhanahz Ellis, Outreach Direcotr at All Dulles Area Muslim Society (ADAMS) and Chaplain at George Mason University, hope to see you there! If you would like to contact or guest, please contact me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
12/15/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
12/15/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: This moderated chat room is just one example of the many programs which the InterFaith Conference is doing. If you are able and willing to financially support the InterFaith Conference’s vital year-round work, please donate now using the donate button on our website – www.ifcmw.org. You can also find out more about us and sign up for our bi-monthly newsletter.
12/15/2011 2:01 pm (et) Moderator: Please also keep in mind that next week will be the last week of the chat before a brief hiatus lasting until the first week in February.