Wednesday, March 30, 2011

The Role that Religion Played and Will Play in the 2011 People’s Movement Uprisings in the Arab World

The corresponding videos can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKTblkbiSwE and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQtY84YwOFo

3/30/2011 11:45 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 11:45 am (et).
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3/30/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
3/30/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is “The Role that Religion Played and Will Play in the 2011 People’s Movement Uprisings in the Arab World,” featuring Ms. Sahar Taman, Co-Founder of Journeys to Understanding, a non-profit organization that sponsors interfaith study tours to countries in the Middle East to foster understanding among Jews, Christians, and Muslims through dialogue and cultural immersion as well as providing educational and training materials and being active online social networkers and recipient of the 2010 Award for Citizen Diplomacy by the US Center for Citizen Diplomacy.
3/30/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: A link to their website: www.journeystounderstanding.com
3/30/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from “soapboxing.” If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
3/30/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues with posting last week. Once the videos are up, they will remain on the right.
3/30/2011 12:01 pm (et) terry taylor: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:01 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. Since the topic this week is so large, we have two videos. Please enjoy and feel free to comment and/or question as you watch.
3/30/2011 12:02 pm (et) Lin: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:02 pm (et).
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3/30/2011 12:03 pm (et) interfaith1017: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:03 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:03 pm (et) Moderator: private message to Sahar Taman: Scroll up you should see both.
3/30/2011 12:05 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Welcome. I am honored that the Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington, DC has invited me to participate in today’s online chat. Please allow me to introduce myself. I am the Co-Founder of Journeys to Understanding: a new NGO that addresses international interfaith dialogue to connect citizen diplomats in the United States and the Muslim world as well as interfaith dialogue within the U.S.
3/30/2011 12:05 pm (et) Sahar Taman: I speak on the topic as someone with experience in international interfaith dialogue between the U.S. and the Arab World. I have worked with grassroots communities on the ground in many Arab countries. I also have deep roots to Egypt as an Egyptian and an Arab Muslim woman although I have lived in the U.S. for 40 years.
3/30/2011 12:06 pm (et) Sahar Taman: The topic of the role of religion in the Arab uprisings is a huge one and there are no experts in it at this time. However, I think we will have a lively conversation and I believe that there are several people on the chat who are connecting from abroad and have direct experience.
3/30/2011 12:07 pm (et) isnerv: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:07 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:07 pm (et) Moderator: A bit of a malfunction but Hengist said: Religions such as Islam can have a positive role in nation-building if they are used in an inclusive, rather than exclusive way. So if two factions use their common beliefs as a bridge, religion is used positively. If the factions use religion as a stick to attack each other, this is negative, and perhaps it would be better to avoid religion in any discourse
3/30/2011 12:09 pm (et) Moderator: kfuquay said: Regarding the word inclusive, it is my understanding from friends in Egypt who are Christian, that both Muslims and Christians saw the recent events as answers to their prayers, so they, on the streets (grassroots) joined hands (metaphorically) throughout the process. Although the US Media did not report much of the inclusive aspect.
3/30/2011 12:09 pm (et) Moderator: pastor_kat_royal said: Religon, sadly, seems to be so much about who has the truth, who doesn't, who's right, who's wrong, who's Chosen, etc. I don't believe this is what God wants. I believe God wants us to eventually come to the realization that we are stronger and better together.
3/30/2011 12:10 pm (et) Kimberly: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:10 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:10 pm (et) Sahar Taman: In my experience and perhaps many would agree, religion is an unavoidable topic in any discourse on society. We have seen in the last few years that religion matters, to everybody. Not just at the personal level, but societal and political. Religion plays many roles in society.
3/30/2011 12:10 pm (et) Daryl Wagner: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:10 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:11 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Yes, in Egypt, there were many reports of Muslims and Christians showing support for each other and respect during the protests. The Egyptians focused on this a great deal. I am posting two photos that are representative.
3/30/2011 12:13 pm (et) meherababa: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:13 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:13 pm (et) Moderator: pastor_kat_royal said: Yes, I saw and saved a photo a few months back which I absolutely loved; one where a group of Christians formed a protective circle around a group of Muslims who were knelt to pray.
3/30/2011 12:14 pm (et) Moderator: Tae said: If there was no corruption with the police forces in Egypt, do you think the Muslim Brotherhood would have gained any power? In other words, do you think religion would hold much power if our society is stable?
3/30/2011 12:15 pm (et) DJW: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:15 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: So it is possible and needful for religious groups to work together to restore civil society. I note that authoritarian governments have been known to exploit such differences, so as to make any group fearful of change.
3/30/2011 12:15 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Hello Tae, it sounds that perhaps you are in Egypt. Let's understand that the corruption in the Egyptian police, all the security status was not just corruption over 40 years. It was pervasive and intimidating on daily basis to the regular Egyptian
3/30/2011 12:17 pm (et) Sahar Taman: The Muslim Brotherhood itself is different from Islam as a religion. They are one of many political and social actors that come from a religious point of view
3/30/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: isnerv said: I am interested to know more about Sharia and the misinformation that seems to be swirling about it in this country.
3/30/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: terry taylor said: Terry, last night we co sponsored a presentation on the Rights of Women in Islam...we had a standing room only crowd. There seems to be a great hunger in the US at the moment for good, accurate info on Islam. Sahar, do you think there is a way to build on this to connect people with what is happening in the Arab Middle East
3/30/2011 12:18 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Restoring civil society is the goal for all the Arab countries in uprisings. Please note that civil society existed at different levels in each country. In Libya we can say there was effectively no civil society. In Libya many thing were upside down. There was a Ghadafi Human Rights Prize that was given out for years internationally. Very ironic
3/30/2011 12:20 pm (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/30/2011 12:20 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Religion, when it supports commonly held values can be supportive of civil society and maintain standards of conduct at all levels.
3/30/2011 12:21 pm (et) Moderator: jbeth said: I'm wondering if you might comment on the Egyptian constitution article 2: does Pope Shenuda want clarification or removal of that article?
3/30/2011 12:21 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Terry, the rights of women in Islam is a huge issue that requires that those who know be vigilent in keeping others informed with acurate information. As we know women are granted full rights in Islam, but that doesn't mean that is practised in the world whether it is at the social or poltical scale. But we we need to talk about ist he progress women are making. In Egypt there is discussion from women's groups to keep the door open for a women to become President. They are fighting the wording in the constitution that references gender and setting it up so women can run
3/30/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: terry taylor said: Thanks, Sahar, that's powerful news about the constitution. It sounds like we can build on the interest in Islam to connect people with what is happening in Egypt, Libya etc.
3/30/2011 12:24 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Jbeth, The discussion on article 2 is fluid and sensitive. The church wants Christians and others to be acknowledge explicitly but perhaps there is a common consensus that taking out the reference to a state religion is now possible at this time. Just referencing the People of the Book will be a significant accomplishment. But the church is not alone, there are many secular Egyptians who want a pluralism described in their constitution. Many others in other countries feel the same.
3/30/2011 12:25 pm (et) Iris Firemoon: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:25 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:27 pm (et) Moderator: terry taylor said: what does article 2 say?
3/30/2011 12:27 pm (et) Sahar Taman: The issue of Sharia in the US is a political and social one. If anyone saw the CNN special Unwelcome: The Muslims Next Door on the building of a mosque in Murfreesboro, TN, most of the fear of those against the mosque was that Sharia would be implemented somehow in the US.
3/30/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: pastor_kat_royal said: Unfortunately I missed that CNN special, but I'd love to see it. Is there a place where it's archived online?
3/30/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Amanda Mouttaki said: the full documentary is here http://www.youtube.com/user/AmericanMuslimMom#p/a/f/0/gRlqz3e9OrA
3/30/2011 12:29 pm (et) Sahar Taman: However, on Sharia, let's look at Egypt where the article 2 of the constitutional clause was changed by the regime to specifically say that is the principal source of legislation. This was one of those incidents where the regime was playing with the sentiments of the people, against each other. Sharia is mostly on family law. There are many issues it doesn't address. Also many sharia scholars take the opinion that a sharia edict, a fatwa, is a non-binding religious edict
3/30/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Amanda Mouttaki: I'm curious - what is the opposition against a pluralistic society? Moral degredation? Distancing from cultural roots?
3/30/2011 12:32 pm (et) Sahar Taman: The opposition is pluralism is in my opinion, a worldwide phenomena based on fear. Fear of the unknown and the 'Other' whoever that might be. The CNN special had two groups of people who admitted in the conversation said they had never met each other. They said the others had never bothed to contact them or vice versa.
3/30/2011 12:33 pm (et) Moderator: isnerv: I recently read an article in which the author took issue with Pres. Obama's position that current reforms are good news for the U.S. - saying that until the U.S. adopts a new position on Israel, we will continue to be looked upon with suspicion. Your thoughts?
3/30/2011 12:33 pm (et) Sahar Taman: In the Arab world, the fear of pluralism is situational in each country. In Algeria and Tunisia the population is 99% Muslim, so pluralism there is accepting different opinions, lifestyles.
3/30/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: pastor_kat_royal said: Sadly that's the problem a lot in the USA especially. We have this 'known us vs scary unknown them' mentality. People go on rumors, half-truths and prejudice with so little fact involved
3/30/2011 12:35 pm (et) Sahar Taman: In Egypt, the pluralism is not just religious Christian, Muslim, Bahai, it is also as we are seeing Salafi (Orthodoxy) and those who want to not live with that way. They fear each other, that people will shove their lifestyles down each other's throats. And sadly in societies where the principles of democracy are not yet there, that is what they try to do
3/30/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: terry taylor said: my organization, Interfaith Paths to Peace has a one page handout that clears up misunderstandings about Islam. If anyone would like a copy email me at interfaithterry@gmail.com and hello to Amanda from Terry in Louisville!
3/30/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: They are afraid of change, Hengist said: and gripping onto the Hengist said: familiar, to the point of Hengist said: forgetting original intent. Hengist said:
3/30/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist: They are afraid of change, and gripping onto the familiar, to the point of forgetting original intent
3/30/2011 12:38 pm (et) MikeNelson: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/30/2011 12:38 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: MikeNelson: Question: Are you willing to make a prediction about which other countries in the Mideast might follow the path of Egypt or Tunisia (or Libya)?
3/30/2011 12:39 pm (et) Sahar Taman: visne; The question of Israel is a big one. It has 100 levels of understanding. Let's start with the premise that the fear of Israel was used as a fear factor by all the Arab regimes, even those who had relations with Israel. The situation of the Palestinian people at the grassroots is one of great injustice, but many were taking advantage of it at all costs under the regimes. However, a new world, a new Egypt, a new Tunisia, a new Yemen, even a new Syria, does not mean that Israel will be at war with its Arab neighbors. These uprising were dignity movements and they don't want war. The want to move on with their lives
3/30/2011 12:42 pm (et) Tony M: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:42 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:43 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Terry, I am sure that we all have learned that information is not enough, there needs to be experience withthe others. Can anyone write a onepager on Christianity? It is so vast, so rich. We need to be aware of that and get people together. Just one meeting sometimes with a Muslim and Christian, or a Jew makes a difference
3/30/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: terry taylor said: I have a one pager on christianity, too (actually about ten different religions. Would you like a copy of the coument about Christianity for review?
3/30/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Actually, not to plug the IFC but we have a handbook called Teaching About Religion, which answers basic questions from 11 different faith perspectives.
3/30/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: pastor_kat_royal said: So true. We can read until we are blue in the face, but until we experience for ourselves we can't fully believe or it won't fully sink in. I personally never appreciated the anti-Muslim hysteria over here, but what really hit home for me was when a Muslim saved one of my family members, knowing we are Christians. To me it just drove the point home how much society is lacking real experience and believing mass hysteria
3/30/2011 12:46 pm (et) Sahar Taman: The question on prediction of what will happen next is interesting. No one can be a prophet on this and no many really saw the uprisings coming. But I always used to say that at least each of the dictators would eventual die as is God's law. Yet, Yemen is very close the edge of a new regime. It is the most complex case where there are tribal issues, seccsion issues, historical issues, power plays. But one notable item is a great woman, a friend, Tawakkol Karman, an activist who has become a protest leader of the people. Unusual for a woman, but she has become a symbol an icon. She has respect from many sides.
3/30/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Daryl Wagner: To change the subject a little I am under the impression that Islam to some extent encouraged revolution with many actions starting with gatherings at Mosques and then pouring into the streets. The people seem to gather strentgh from there religious beleifs.
3/30/2011 12:48 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Daryl, in all the case of these Arab uprisings, Islam really had nothing to do with getting the people on the street. In no situation, even Bahrain, where it is portray as a sectarian divide, but it is also a dignity uprising.
3/30/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist: Are Sharia Scholars currently trying to reinterpret Sharia for very different circumstances, such as modern Egypt or the United States?
3/30/2011 12:50 pm (et) Sahar Taman: What was predicted was that the Arab people, if and when they ever stood up to their governments (and the countries which supported the regimes) would pour into the street from groups like the Muslim Brother (MB) calling them. They used to say the MB could bring out 1 million people in a minute. That didn't happen. The people came by themselves. People want their rights, their opportunties, their freedoms, accountability. They want that and then they deal with religion.
3/30/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: jbeth: It seems that the drafting or revising of a constitution is contentious in any society. [remember the contstitutional debates in the US around 1800?) Even when the deliberators share a worldview/religion, civil discourse is a very difficult task. Comments?
3/30/2011 12:53 pm (et) Interesting: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:53 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:53 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Hengist: The question on Sharia is huge, Sharia is constantly in interpretation. There are a legal vehicles for its interpretation. Sharia scholars are lawyers. It is much more than just constitutional law in the U.S. for example. In the U.S. there are lawyers working to apply Sharia principles in cases where they are relevants such as the rights of divorce for women where under Sharia, women have more rights than in some statres
3/30/2011 12:54 pm (et) Moderator: Amanda Mouttaki: so how can these pathways to democracy be organically fostered in societies disconnected from the principles of democracy? Further exposure, and interaction but the economically disadvantaged who make up large segments of these pop. have bigger concerns this
3/30/2011 12:55 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist: Unfortunately, lawyers often do not make law more relevant or easy to understand.
3/30/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Alright everyone, as Ms. Taman is typing to the last two question I am going to post the remaining three I have. Once we have all said our piece on these, it will unfortunately time for us to sign off. .
3/30/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Sahar Taman said: Amanda, I believe that all democracy is local democracy and that is what is missing in countries crippled by authoritarian states. We need to start there. In every country, starting now, democracy builders (not nation-builders) can flood the streets providing knowledge transfer in community organizing, building libraries, places of assembly, local governments, parent assn in schools,
3/30/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Sahar Taman said: This provide power to the people who are used to waiting (because they had no other choice) for the central authorities to take care of things.
3/30/2011 12:58 pm (et) lori.merrill: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/30/2011 12:58 pm (et).
3/30/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: jpwogaman: If God is greater than we are, is that a strong Muslim basis for openness to God at work through others, thus underscoring religious liberty?
3/30/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: raymndsigrist: will the new Egypt, etc. be in a better position to help the Palesinians?
3/30/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: meherababa: When we addrwss the question of how religion WILL affect the peoples' movement in the Middle East, wouldn't it be most sensible for religions to begin looking at their respective holy text and find the passages that recognize pluralism and the main dictate to work together to serve others. The following quotes might be examples: QURAN Tablespread 5-48 As it is written in the Koran [5.48] ‘For every one of you did We appoint a law and a way. If Allah had pleased He would have made you one people, but (He didn't) that He might test you in what He gave you. Therefore compete with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; for all return to Allah, so He will let you know (after Judgement Day) that in which you differed.’ There is also the teaching of the Biblical prophet Micah (4:5) that in the end of days-the Messianic Age ‘All people will walk, each in the name of their own God, and we shall walk in the name of the Lord our God forever.’
3/30/2011 1:00 pm (et) Hengist: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/30/2011 1:00 pm (et).
3/30/2011 1:01 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Dear Meherababa, yes all religious actors (leaders, laymen) have, should and I think will look at their texts which all indicate pluralism is what God intended.
3/30/2011 1:02 pm (et) Sahar Taman: What Islam says and what people do are not the same as we know. Religion liberty is a key in Islam, by text and historical precedent.
3/30/2011 1:03 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Final question on Egypt and Palestinians, the empathy of the Egyptian people is for Palestinian justice. Now they need to press their gov't for that. It will be part of an open and loud debate and I hope all the issues will be loud and open and democratic.
3/30/2011 1:03 pm (et) Sahar Taman: Thank you all.
3/30/2011 1:03 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you are interested in further communication with our speaker, you can email her at sahartaman@yahoo.com. The videos are available on YouTube at www.youtube.com/IFCMW and transcripts of the chat will be available at www.blogspot.ifcmw.org.
3/30/2011 1:03 pm (et) Moderator: We hope to see you back here next week, same place, same time, the topic will be “The Role of Religion in Environmental Action” featuring Joelle Novey of Greater Washington Interfaith Power and Light (GW-IPL), a project of the IFC.
3/30/2011 1:04 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.

Wednesday, March 23, 2011

Uncovering the True Meaning of the Swastika (3/23/11)

The corresponding remarks that began this discussion can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntN4SKhZSZE.

3/23/2011 11:42 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 11:42 am (et).
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3/23/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is just our second attempt, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is “Uncovering the True Meaning of the Swastika.” Our speakers are Melanie Maron Pell, Director of the Washington Region of the American Jewish Committee and Board Member of IFC and Dr. Siva Subramanian, First Vice President of IFC, Co Founder of Hindu-Jain Temples Association and Council of Hindu Temples of USA.
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from “soapboxing.” If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) mani.saravanan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments. Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues last week.
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3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Thanks for this important discussion! What made it possible for the InterFaith Conference and the American Jewish Committee to work together on such a divisive and difficult issue?
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: So much credit is due to the Interfaith Conference!
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The IFC created an incredible teaching tool called the Teaching About Religions Notebook
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: which explores the symbols and traditions of 11 faith communities.
3/23/2011 12:13 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: From that project, the issue of the swastika came up, and it became clear that we had an opportunity to explain this further.
3/23/2011 12:13 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Also, much credit is due to DC Rao, who has championed and spearheaded this effort on behalf of the Hindu community.
3/23/2011 12:14 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In addition, our respect for each others' faiths and our respect for each other as individuals made for a true collaboration.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Hi All, Siva will be joining us in just a second, but for now let us move on to the next question.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: First, I have to say I miss the Interfaith community. I've moved back to AlabamaHere Interfaith includes different protestant traditions. I miss the interaction. How can I help educate those here that do not have such exposure?
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: One great place to start is to order the Teaching About Religions notebook from IFC.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It can truly be a great starting point.
3/23/2011 12:16 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: yw My minister asked me when I moved back how my interfaith work fit in the bible belt. I admitted that it doesn't, but I still listen and appreciate the culture of my friends around the world
3/23/2011 12:16 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: While Alabama may be less diverse than some other communities, I imagine there are synagogues and other small pockets of practitioners of other faiths.
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Why did Hitler use the swastika? We know he referred to the Germans as the Pure Aryan Race. How did he connect the German people with the Aryans of Indian culture?
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: You can also check with universities which may have faculty or chaplains who could serve as speakers.
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) interfaith1017: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:18 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The whole idea of doing this conversationis to make sure over time we can educate every one and impress upon trhe othe side of teh symbol which is ancient and holy
3/23/2011 12:18 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Laura, in the Western world, the swastika experienced a resurgence following the archaeological work in the late 19th century of Heinrich Schliemann, who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy and associated it with the ancient migrations of Proto-Indo-Europeans. He connected it with similar shapes found on ancient pots in Germany, and theorized that the swastika was an important religious symbol of ancient Germanic cultures. Based on this theory, the swastika gained worldwide popularity as a symbol of good luck and success. Schliemann’s work soon became intertwined with volkish movements – populist, ethnic movements that adopted the swastika as the symbol of the “Aryan” or “master” race and signified German nationalist pride.
3/23/2011 12:19 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Eventhough the dark side by its misuse and abuse causing hate and genocide
3/23/2011 12:20 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The term Arya in Sanskrit means Noble and Germany had several scholars who translated teh Vedas in the 1800+ and Germans were aware of such terms
3/23/2011 12:21 pm (et) Tony M: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:21 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Tell us again why and how the symbol of the swastika came to mean such very different things?
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The same of the term Swastika was known to Germans and Hitler misappropriated it and used in a distorrted way
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The adoption of the swastika as the sole National Flag for Nazi Germany in 1935 coincided with the passage of laws which defined Jews as being of “inferior blood” and which began the process of terrorizing them. Jews lost their right to vote, their ability to marry (or even employ certain) “Aryans,” their capacity to work in certain professions, to use a long list of public facilities. Jews had their citizenship revoked, they became demonized and described in language usually reserved for vermin.
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) bhamabala: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What kind of experiecne did you have when misunderstanding the use of the swastika?
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: So, sadly, for Jews, this symbol that has such sacred meaning for so many people in the world, is synonymous with fear, genocide and a terrible period
3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et) Doris: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: For Jews, the swastika is a symbol of anti-Semitism, so Jews are sometimes taken aback when they see it on Hindu temples or worn as pendants or used on welcome mats in homes.
3/23/2011 12:25 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: This word Swastika is in Sanskrit or Samskritam language meaning “su” means “good” and “asti” means “is” – that which brings “good luck and well being”. This word is engraved in places of worships in these religions from ancient times till today. Also it can be seen at the door ways of Temples and Homes and Palaces. It forms part of the religious ceremonies to celebrate weddings, consecration of new homes, embarking on new ventures or any auspicious activities. It is also used to decorate books, vehicles, cash registers in stores/shops and myriad other objects in daily use in many Asian countries especially India.
3/23/2011 12:25 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It's critical that we educate ourselves about the sacred use of the symbol so that we don't confuse this use with it's more pernicious and ugly use.
3/23/2011 12:26 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Swastika or Svastika is an ancient, sacred and holy symbol for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism. This symbol has been noted since Vedic times (5000+ years ago in Rig Veda 1.89.6), in the Indus valley Civilization several thousands of years ago as well as in Troy, Greece many thousand years ago. This symbol is also seen in
3/23/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Tenzin said: How can we reduce this stigmatism attached to using the Swastika symbol? In my culture (Tibetan), Swastika is still used on tents as a good luck and success symbol, and some nomads even have it tattoed on their hands.
3/23/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Tenzin said: oops! I meants stigma not stigmatism. lol
3/23/2011 12:30 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I don't know that we can ever fully remediate the symbol, but I do think that we can educate people about its religious use. It's a great topic for interfaith dialogue, and I would encourage all communities to engage in a discussion of the symbol.
3/23/2011 12:31 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: As Jews, we will never forget - and must never forget - what occurred under the symbol by the Nazis. That said, we should never stifle or try to curtail the use of the symbol when used in its original, sacred form.
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Melanie has noted that it became synonymous with anti-semitism and Jews are often taken aback when they see it used elsewhere, such as in temples, and as pendants and welcome mats in homes. But this is not only an issue for Jews. As a Christian, I grew up only knowing the dark side of the Swastika, knowing its hateful usage by the Nazis. It was only much more recently that I learned of its positive meanings!
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Iris Firemoon said: I appreciate this discussion of the swastika, because I had no idea about it's diverse background. Before today, I would have only thought about the negative associations. I did pick up a copy of the IFC guide on various religious symbols, but haven't read this section yet.
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I agree with Tenzin. This symbol is used widely even today in many asian countries and that is why these interfatih dialogues are important
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: We have to understand the distinction - and we can only understand this when we talk about it. It's important for practitioners of Eastern religions to understand just how painful the symbol is (when used on the Nazi flag).
3/23/2011 12:33 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: When I see the symbol on a Nazi flag next to the symbol on a Hindu temple, it looks very different to me, so I do think we can sensitize our communities to appreciate the distinction and to understand that they are completely different.
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: I suppose that is the same feeling as the Confederate flag to some groups in the South
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: And Clark is right - the swastika has become a taboo, and that's not a solution either because it should be used in its original manner without penalty or fear.
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I agree with Christine Similar to flags being abused or Cross being misussed
3/23/2011 12:35 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: As Siva said in the video, symbols - by definition - have power.
3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Let me also move to what this symbols means to other religions. In Hinduism
3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et) Dilnavaz: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:37 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: representing the Sun spreading light in all directions
3/23/2011 12:38 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Representing Lord Ganesha, the remover of obstacles and the repository of wisdom; who is invariable invoked at the start of any religious ceremony in the form of OM (AUM)
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Whereas if ti used inthe Hindu Temples in USA this can be thoroughly misunderstood and may lead to some serious problems including the antisemitism
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: Siva, can you tell us about an experience you've had when someone else has misunderstood your use? What kind of problems did it lead to, if any?
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: And how did you overcome it?
3/23/2011 12:40 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Lin, it is agreat quesion. It haas happened at the Temples when westerneers come to visit they are taken aback in seeing the use of Symbol Swastika. We had to sit down and explain to them but they must have still with a feeling of not being satisfied with that answer.
3/23/2011 12:41 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: So that is why this type informational session, IFC and AJC and UHJT using many different means to educate the school and college children as well as adults
3/23/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What about in daily life?
3/23/2011 12:42 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: We are grateful to The CHief Rabbinates of Judaism in Israel and here as well to the Hindu spiritual leaders to come out and boldy declare what the symbol represents for Jews around the workd and the Hindus and Buddhists, Jains and Zorastrians.
3/23/2011 12:43 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: In daily life, for many years we will keep those symbols only in our prayer room and not celebrate publicly.
3/23/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: We are also interested in your comments, have any of the participants been met with difficulties because of their use of the swastika?
3/23/2011 12:44 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I can see if I invited people to my home I have to be careful because otherwise they will be offended
3/23/2011 12:45 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: And yet, every difficult situation is an opportunity for a teachable moment.
3/23/2011 12:46 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Totally agree. But it is important that this education is done together with Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, Janis.
3/23/2011 12:46 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Siva, you mentioned UHJT without explaining what that group is. Please explain.
3/23/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: Melanie, have you faced antisemitism where someone deliberately used the swastika to intimidate you? And how did you respond?
3/23/2011 12:47 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Thankn You. United Hindu Jain Temples Association is an organization that was formed in response to the request from IFC in 1990. All teh Temples in metropolitand DC area (12 of them) joined to gether and represented the Hindu and jain faiths in all of the IFC deliberations
3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et) marymac: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I am pleased to say that I have never personally had an incident involving the swastika. That said, I work for and in the Jewish community, and many Jewish institutions (synagogues, cemetaries, etc.) have been vandalized with swastikas.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In addition, the swastika is sometimes used as a general symbol of hate - not necessarily directed at Jews.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: I have a Jewish Menora, Ganesh figures, buddhas, Arabic calligraphy, etc
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: The entry room of my home is where they all are housed, and I can tell it often makes people uncomfortable. But it is how I teach my visitors.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: These acts must be identified as hate crimes, prosecuted vigorously, and condemned community-wide.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Great Christin. We need to take lessons from You. That is fantastic.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Christine, that's so important.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I have many other figures and symbols in my house, too.
3/23/2011 12:51 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The whole idea of this brochure came into for exactly that reason to teach every one about this symbol. I have brought many different relics and symbols from the various countries I have visited and are in our living room.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: mani.saravanan said: This is an educative information and we must explore the means to educate the symbol globaly with the modern high tech
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It's important for everyone to understand that we can be authentic practioners of our own faiths and still appreciate the symbols and values of other faiths. It doesn't dilute our own practice to understand and admire other teachings.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: So true.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What about freedom of speech?
3/23/2011 12:53 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Thanks Mani for that suggestion. WE need to explore many mechanism including this You tube and Face book and other wenb 2.0 adn all other means fo rthis educcation
3/23/2011 12:53 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In the U.S., the symbol of the swastika itself is not prohibited like it is in some European countries. Freedom of speech and religion are fundamental to our pluralistic society and are the reasons why minority communities can thrive.
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Christine Arnold: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: HI Lin in what fashion. Anyone is free to exercise their freedom to speak. But we educating every one else about this symbols and others is part of that freedom of expression
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The swastika has a taboo associated with it, but it is not outlawed.
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I totally agree.
3/23/2011 12:55 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: People are free to be hateful as long as they are not commiting crimes of hate and are not inciting violence.
3/23/2011 12:55 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: People are also free to be ignorant, so our job is to try to educate!
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Time is flying so I want to put the declaration that we spoke about inthe video - Let me try.
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Swastika is an ancient and greatly auspicious symbol of the Hindu tradition. It is inscribed on Hindu Temples, ritual altars, entrances, and even accounts books. A DISTORTED VERSION of this sacred symbol was misappropriated by the Third Reich in Germany, and abused as an emblem under which heinous crimes were perpetrated against humanity, particularly the Jewish people. The participants recognize that this symbol is, and has been sacred to Hindus for millennia, long before its misappropriation.
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: But we must value our freedom of speech with our responsibility to use that freedom. As someone on the Supreme Court said, 'freedom of speech does not mean you can shout
3/23/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Clark's comment ends with "shout fire in a crowded theater"
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: How true!
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Declaration of the Second Hindu-Jewish Leadership Summit, February 2008, Jerusalem
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: What was given above is from this declaratin posted earlier
3/23/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Ok folks, we're going to wrap up today. Thank you for your participation today. If you are interested in further communication with IFC or our speakers, please email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. We hope to see you back here next week, same place, same time, the topic will be “The Role that Religion Played and Will Play in the 2011 People’s Movement Uprisings in the Arab World,” featuring Ms. Sahar Taman.
3/23/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
3/23/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org.
3/23/2011 1:03 pm (et) Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 1:03 pm (et).