The corresponding remarks that began this discussion can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v
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3/23/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is just our second attempt, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is “Uncovering the True Meaning of the Swastika.” Our speakers are Melanie Maron Pell, Director of the Washington Region of the American Jewish Committee and Board Member of IFC and Dr. Siva Subramanian, First Vice President of IFC, Co Founder of Hindu-Jain Temples Association and Council of Hindu Temples ofUSA
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from “soapboxing.” If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) mani.saravanan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments. Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues last week.
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3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Thanks for this important discussion! What made it possible for the InterFaith Conference and the American Jewish Committee to work together on such a divisive and difficult issue?
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: So much credit is due to the Interfaith Conference!
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The IFC created an incredible teaching tool called the Teaching About Religions Notebook
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: which explores the symbols and traditions of 11 faith communities.
3/23/2011 12:13 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: From that project, the issue of the swastika came up, and it became clear that we had an opportunity to explain this further.
3/23/2011 12:13 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Also, much credit is due to DC Rao, who has championed and spearheaded this effort on behalf of the Hindu community.
3/23/2011 12:14 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In addition, our respect for each others' faiths and our respect for each other as individuals made for a true collaboration.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Hi All, Siva will be joining us in just a second, but for now let us move on to the next question.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: First, I have to say I miss the Interfaith community. I've moved back to AlabamaHere Interfaith includes different protestant traditions. I miss the interaction. How can I help educate those here that do not have such exposure?
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: One great place to start is to order the Teaching About Religions notebook from IFC.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It can truly be a great starting point.
3/23/2011 12:16 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: yw My minister asked me when I moved back how my interfaith work fit in the bible belt. I admitted that it doesn't, but I still listen and appreciate the culture of my friends around the world
3/23/2011 12:16 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: WhileAlabama
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Why did Hitler use the swastika? We know he referred to the Germans as the Pure Aryan Race. How did he connect the German people with the Aryans of Indian culture?
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: You can also check with universities which may have faculty or chaplains who could serve as speakers.
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) interfaith1017: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:18 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The whole idea of doing this conversationis to make sure over time we can educate every one and impress upon trhe othe side of teh symbol which is ancient and holy
3/23/2011 12:18 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Laura, in the Western world, the swastika experienced a resurgence following the archaeological work in the late 19th century of Heinrich Schliemann, who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy and associated it with the ancient migrations of Proto-Indo-Europeans. He connected it with similar shapes found on ancient pots inGermany
3/23/2011 12:19 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Eventhough the dark side by its misuse and abuse causing hate and genocide
3/23/2011 12:20 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The term Arya in Sanskrit means Noble and Germany had several scholars who translated teh Vedas in the 1800+ and Germans were aware of such terms
3/23/2011 12:21 pm (et) Tony M: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:21 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Tell us again why and how the symbol of the swastika came to mean such very different things?
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The same of the term Swastika was known to Germans and Hitler misappropriated it and used in a distorrted way
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The adoption of the swastika as the sole National Flag for Nazi Germany in 1935 coincided with the passage of laws which defined Jews as being of “inferior blood†and which began the process of terrorizing them. Jews lost their right to vote, their ability to marry (or even employ certain) “Aryans,†their capacity to work in certain professions, to use a long list of public facilities. Jews had their citizenship revoked, they became demonized and described in language usually reserved for vermin.
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) bhamabala: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What kind of experiecne did you have when misunderstanding the use of the swastika?
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: So, sadly, for Jews, this symbol that has such sacred meaning for so many people in the world, is synonymous with fear, genocide and a terrible period
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3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: For Jews, the swastika is a symbol of anti-Semitism, so Jews are sometimes taken aback when they see it on Hindu temples or worn as pendants or used on welcome mats in homes.
3/23/2011 12:25 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: This word Swastika is in Sanskrit or Samskritam language meaning “su” means “good” and “asti” means “is” – that which brings “good luck and well being”. This word is engraved in places of worships in these religions from ancient times till today. Also it can be seen at the door ways ofTemples India
3/23/2011 12:25 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It's critical that we educate ourselves about the sacred use of the symbol so that we don't confuse this use with it's more pernicious and ugly use.
3/23/2011 12:26 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Swastika or Svastika is an ancient, sacred and holy symbol for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism. This symbol has been noted since Vedic times (5000+ years ago in Rig Veda 1.89.6), in the Indus valley Civilization several thousands of years ago as well as inTroy , Greece
3/23/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Tenzin said: How can we reduce this stigmatism attached to using the Swastika symbol? In my culture (Tibetan), Swastika is still used on tents as a good luck and success symbol, and some nomads even have it tattoed on their hands.
3/23/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Tenzin said: oops! I meants stigma not stigmatism. lol
3/23/2011 12:30 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I don't know that we can ever fully remediate the symbol, but I do think that we can educate people about its religious use. It's a great topic for interfaith dialogue, and I would encourage all communities to engage in a discussion of the symbol.
3/23/2011 12:31 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: As Jews, we will never forget - and must never forget - what occurred under the symbol by the Nazis. That said, we should never stifle or try to curtail the use of the symbol when used in its original, sacred form.
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Melanie has noted that it became synonymous with anti-semitism and Jews are often taken aback when they see it used elsewhere, such as in temples, and as pendants and welcome mats in homes. But this is not only an issue for Jews. As a Christian, I grew up only knowing the dark side of the Swastika, knowing its hateful usage by the Nazis. It was only much more recently that I learned of its positive meanings!
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Iris Firemoon said: I appreciate this discussion of the swastika, because I had no idea about it's diverse background. Before today, I would have only thought about the negative associations. I did pick up a copy of the IFC guide on various religious symbols, but haven't read this section yet.
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I agree with Tenzin. This symbol is used widely even today in many asian countries and that is why these interfatih dialogues are important
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: We have to understand the distinction - and we can only understand this when we talk about it. It's important for practitioners of Eastern religions to understand just how painful the symbol is (when used on the Nazi flag).
3/23/2011 12:33 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: When I see the symbol on a Nazi flag next to the symbol on a Hindu temple, it looks very different to me, so I do think we can sensitize our communities to appreciate the distinction and to understand that they are completely different.
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: I suppose that is the same feeling as the Confederate flag to some groups in the South
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: And Clark is right - the swastika has become a taboo, and that's not a solution either because it should be used in its original manner without penalty or fear.
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I agree with Christine Similar to flags being abused or Cross being misussed
3/23/2011 12:35 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: As Siva said in the video, symbols - by definition - have power.
3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Let me also move to what this symbols means to other religions. In Hinduism
3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et) Dilnavaz: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:37 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: representing the Sun spreading light in all directions
3/23/2011 12:38 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Representing Lord Ganesha, the remover of obstacles and the repository of wisdom; who is invariable invoked at the start of any religious ceremony in the form of OM (AUM)
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Whereas if ti used inthe Hindu Temples in USA this can be thoroughly misunderstood and may lead to some serious problems including the antisemitism
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: Siva, can you tell us about an experience you've had when someone else has misunderstood your use? What kind of problems did it lead to, if any?
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: And how did you overcome it?
3/23/2011 12:40 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Lin, it is agreat quesion. It haas happened at theTemples
3/23/2011 12:41 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: So that is why this type informational session, IFC and AJC and UHJT using many different means to educate the school and college children as well as adults
3/23/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What about in daily life?
3/23/2011 12:42 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: We are grateful to The CHief Rabbinates of Judaism in Israel and here as well to the Hindu spiritual leaders to come out and boldy declare what the symbol represents for Jews around the workd and the Hindus and Buddhists, Jains and Zorastrians.
3/23/2011 12:43 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: In daily life, for many years we will keep those symbols only in our prayer room and not celebrate publicly.
3/23/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: We are also interested in your comments, have any of the participants been met with difficulties because of their use of the swastika?
3/23/2011 12:44 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I can see if I invited people to my home I have to be careful because otherwise they will be offended
3/23/2011 12:45 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: And yet, every difficult situation is an opportunity for a teachable moment.
3/23/2011 12:46 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Totally agree. But it is important that this education is done together with Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, Janis.
3/23/2011 12:46 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Siva, you mentioned UHJT without explaining what that group is. Please explain.
3/23/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: Melanie, have you faced antisemitism where someone deliberately used the swastika to intimidate you? And how did you respond?
3/23/2011 12:47 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Thankn You. United Hindu Jain Temples Association is an organization that was formed in response to the request from IFC in 1990. All teh Temples in metropolitand DC area (12 of them) joined to gether and represented the Hindu and jain faiths in all of the IFC deliberations
3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et) marymac: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I am pleased to say that I have never personally had an incident involving the swastika. That said, I work for and in the Jewish community, and many Jewish institutions (synagogues, cemetaries, etc.) have been vandalized with swastikas.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In addition, the swastika is sometimes used as a general symbol of hate - not necessarily directed at Jews.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: I have a Jewish Menora, Ganesh figures, buddhas, Arabic calligraphy, etc
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: The entry room of my home is where they all are housed, and I can tell it often makes people uncomfortable. But it is how I teach my visitors.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: These acts must be identified as hate crimes, prosecuted vigorously, and condemned community-wide.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Great Christin. We need to take lessons from You. That is fantastic.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Christine, that's so important.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I have many other figures and symbols in my house, too.
3/23/2011 12:51 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The whole idea of this brochure came into for exactly that reason to teach every one about this symbol. I have brought many different relics and symbols from the various countries I have visited and are in our living room.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: mani.saravanan said: This is an educative information and we must explore the means to educate the symbol globaly with the modern high tech
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It's important for everyone to understand that we can be authentic practioners of our own faiths and still appreciate the symbols and values of other faiths. It doesn't dilute our own practice to understand and admire other teachings.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: So true.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What about freedom of speech?
3/23/2011 12:53 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Thanks Mani for that suggestion. WE need to explore many mechanism including this You tube and Face book and other wenb 2.0 adn all other means fo rthis educcation
3/23/2011 12:53 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In the U.S., the symbol of the swastika itself is not prohibited like it is in some European countries. Freedom of speech and religion are fundamental to our pluralistic society and are the reasons why minority communities can thrive.
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Christine Arnold: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: HI Lin in what fashion. Anyone is free to exercise their freedom to speak. But we educating every one else about this symbols and others is part of that freedom of expression
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The swastika has a taboo associated with it, but it is not outlawed.
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I totally agree.
3/23/2011 12:55 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: People are free to be hateful as long as they are not commiting crimes of hate and are not inciting violence.
3/23/2011 12:55 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: People are also free to be ignorant, so our job is to try to educate!
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Time is flying so I want to put the declaration that we spoke about inthe video - Let me try.
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Swastika is an ancient and greatly auspicious symbol of the Hindu tradition. It is inscribed onHindu Temples Germany
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: But we must value our freedom of speech with our responsibility to use that freedom. As someone on the Supreme Court said, 'freedom of speech does not mean you can shout
3/23/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator:Clark 's comment ends with "shout fire in a crowded theater"
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: How true!
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Declaration of the Second Hindu-Jewish Leadership Summit, February 2008,Jerusalem
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: What was given above is from this declaratin posted earlier
3/23/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Ok folks, we're going to wrap up today. Thank you for your participation today. If you are interested in further communication with IFC or our speakers, please email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. We hope to see you back here next week, same place, same time, the topic will be “The Role that Religion Played and Will Play in the 2011 People’s Movement Uprisings in the Arab World,” featuring Ms. Sahar Taman.
3/23/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
3/23/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org.
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3/23/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is just our second attempt, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is “Uncovering the True Meaning of the Swastika.” Our speakers are Melanie Maron Pell, Director of the Washington Region of the American Jewish Committee and Board Member of IFC and Dr. Siva Subramanian, First Vice President of IFC, Co Founder of Hindu-Jain Temples Association and Council of Hindu Temples of
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from “soapboxing.” If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et) mani.saravanan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:00 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments. Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues last week.
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3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Thanks for this important discussion! What made it possible for the InterFaith Conference and the American Jewish Committee to work together on such a divisive and difficult issue?
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: So much credit is due to the Interfaith Conference!
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The IFC created an incredible teaching tool called the Teaching About Religions Notebook
3/23/2011 12:12 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: which explores the symbols and traditions of 11 faith communities.
3/23/2011 12:13 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: From that project, the issue of the swastika came up, and it became clear that we had an opportunity to explain this further.
3/23/2011 12:13 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Also, much credit is due to DC Rao, who has championed and spearheaded this effort on behalf of the Hindu community.
3/23/2011 12:14 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In addition, our respect for each others' faiths and our respect for each other as individuals made for a true collaboration.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Hi All, Siva will be joining us in just a second, but for now let us move on to the next question.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: First, I have to say I miss the Interfaith community. I've moved back to AlabamaHere Interfaith includes different protestant traditions. I miss the interaction. How can I help educate those here that do not have such exposure?
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: One great place to start is to order the Teaching About Religions notebook from IFC.
3/23/2011 12:15 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It can truly be a great starting point.
3/23/2011 12:16 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: yw My minister asked me when I moved back how my interfaith work fit in the bible belt. I admitted that it doesn't, but I still listen and appreciate the culture of my friends around the world
3/23/2011 12:16 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: While
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Why did Hitler use the swastika? We know he referred to the Germans as the Pure Aryan Race. How did he connect the German people with the Aryans of Indian culture?
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: You can also check with universities which may have faculty or chaplains who could serve as speakers.
3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et) interfaith1017: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:17 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:18 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The whole idea of doing this conversationis to make sure over time we can educate every one and impress upon trhe othe side of teh symbol which is ancient and holy
3/23/2011 12:18 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Laura, in the Western world, the swastika experienced a resurgence following the archaeological work in the late 19th century of Heinrich Schliemann, who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy and associated it with the ancient migrations of Proto-Indo-Europeans. He connected it with similar shapes found on ancient pots in
3/23/2011 12:19 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Eventhough the dark side by its misuse and abuse causing hate and genocide
3/23/2011 12:20 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The term Arya in Sanskrit means Noble and Germany had several scholars who translated teh Vedas in the 1800+ and Germans were aware of such terms
3/23/2011 12:21 pm (et) Tony M: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:21 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Tell us again why and how the symbol of the swastika came to mean such very different things?
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The same of the term Swastika was known to Germans and Hitler misappropriated it and used in a distorrted way
3/23/2011 12:22 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The adoption of the swastika as the sole National Flag for Nazi Germany in 1935 coincided with the passage of laws which defined Jews as being of “inferior blood†and which began the process of terrorizing them. Jews lost their right to vote, their ability to marry (or even employ certain) “Aryans,†their capacity to work in certain professions, to use a long list of public facilities. Jews had their citizenship revoked, they became demonized and described in language usually reserved for vermin.
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) bhamabala: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What kind of experiecne did you have when misunderstanding the use of the swastika?
3/23/2011 12:23 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: So, sadly, for Jews, this symbol that has such sacred meaning for so many people in the world, is synonymous with fear, genocide and a terrible period
3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et) Doris: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:24 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: For Jews, the swastika is a symbol of anti-Semitism, so Jews are sometimes taken aback when they see it on Hindu temples or worn as pendants or used on welcome mats in homes.
3/23/2011 12:25 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: This word Swastika is in Sanskrit or Samskritam language meaning “su” means “good” and “asti” means “is” – that which brings “good luck and well being”. This word is engraved in places of worships in these religions from ancient times till today. Also it can be seen at the door ways of
3/23/2011 12:25 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It's critical that we educate ourselves about the sacred use of the symbol so that we don't confuse this use with it's more pernicious and ugly use.
3/23/2011 12:26 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Swastika or Svastika is an ancient, sacred and holy symbol for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism. This symbol has been noted since Vedic times (5000+ years ago in Rig Veda 1.89.6), in the Indus valley Civilization several thousands of years ago as well as in
3/23/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Tenzin said: How can we reduce this stigmatism attached to using the Swastika symbol? In my culture (Tibetan), Swastika is still used on tents as a good luck and success symbol, and some nomads even have it tattoed on their hands.
3/23/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Tenzin said: oops! I meants stigma not stigmatism. lol
3/23/2011 12:30 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I don't know that we can ever fully remediate the symbol, but I do think that we can educate people about its religious use. It's a great topic for interfaith dialogue, and I would encourage all communities to engage in a discussion of the symbol.
3/23/2011 12:31 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: As Jews, we will never forget - and must never forget - what occurred under the symbol by the Nazis. That said, we should never stifle or try to curtail the use of the symbol when used in its original, sacred form.
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Melanie has noted that it became synonymous with anti-semitism and Jews are often taken aback when they see it used elsewhere, such as in temples, and as pendants and welcome mats in homes. But this is not only an issue for Jews. As a Christian, I grew up only knowing the dark side of the Swastika, knowing its hateful usage by the Nazis. It was only much more recently that I learned of its positive meanings!
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Iris Firemoon said: I appreciate this discussion of the swastika, because I had no idea about it's diverse background. Before today, I would have only thought about the negative associations. I did pick up a copy of the IFC guide on various religious symbols, but haven't read this section yet.
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I agree with Tenzin. This symbol is used widely even today in many asian countries and that is why these interfatih dialogues are important
3/23/2011 12:32 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: We have to understand the distinction - and we can only understand this when we talk about it. It's important for practitioners of Eastern religions to understand just how painful the symbol is (when used on the Nazi flag).
3/23/2011 12:33 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: When I see the symbol on a Nazi flag next to the symbol on a Hindu temple, it looks very different to me, so I do think we can sensitize our communities to appreciate the distinction and to understand that they are completely different.
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: I suppose that is the same feeling as the Confederate flag to some groups in the South
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: And Clark is right - the swastika has become a taboo, and that's not a solution either because it should be used in its original manner without penalty or fear.
3/23/2011 12:34 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I agree with Christine Similar to flags being abused or Cross being misussed
3/23/2011 12:35 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: As Siva said in the video, symbols - by definition - have power.
3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Let me also move to what this symbols means to other religions. In Hinduism
3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et) Dilnavaz: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 12:36 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:37 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: representing the Sun spreading light in all directions
3/23/2011 12:38 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Representing Lord Ganesha, the remover of obstacles and the repository of wisdom; who is invariable invoked at the start of any religious ceremony in the form of OM (AUM)
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Whereas if ti used inthe Hindu Temples in USA this can be thoroughly misunderstood and may lead to some serious problems including the antisemitism
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: Siva, can you tell us about an experience you've had when someone else has misunderstood your use? What kind of problems did it lead to, if any?
3/23/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: And how did you overcome it?
3/23/2011 12:40 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Lin, it is agreat quesion. It haas happened at the
3/23/2011 12:41 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: So that is why this type informational session, IFC and AJC and UHJT using many different means to educate the school and college children as well as adults
3/23/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What about in daily life?
3/23/2011 12:42 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: We are grateful to The CHief Rabbinates of Judaism in Israel and here as well to the Hindu spiritual leaders to come out and boldy declare what the symbol represents for Jews around the workd and the Hindus and Buddhists, Jains and Zorastrians.
3/23/2011 12:43 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: In daily life, for many years we will keep those symbols only in our prayer room and not celebrate publicly.
3/23/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: We are also interested in your comments, have any of the participants been met with difficulties because of their use of the swastika?
3/23/2011 12:44 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I can see if I invited people to my home I have to be careful because otherwise they will be offended
3/23/2011 12:45 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: And yet, every difficult situation is an opportunity for a teachable moment.
3/23/2011 12:46 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Totally agree. But it is important that this education is done together with Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, Janis.
3/23/2011 12:46 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: Siva, you mentioned UHJT without explaining what that group is. Please explain.
3/23/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: Melanie, have you faced antisemitism where someone deliberately used the swastika to intimidate you? And how did you respond?
3/23/2011 12:47 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Thankn You. United Hindu Jain Temples Association is an organization that was formed in response to the request from IFC in 1990. All teh Temples in metropolitand DC area (12 of them) joined to gether and represented the Hindu and jain faiths in all of the IFC deliberations
3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et) marymac: private message to Moderator: logs in on 3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:48 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I am pleased to say that I have never personally had an incident involving the swastika. That said, I work for and in the Jewish community, and many Jewish institutions (synagogues, cemetaries, etc.) have been vandalized with swastikas.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In addition, the swastika is sometimes used as a general symbol of hate - not necessarily directed at Jews.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: I have a Jewish Menora, Ganesh figures, buddhas, Arabic calligraphy, etc
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Christine Arnold said: The entry room of my home is where they all are housed, and I can tell it often makes people uncomfortable. But it is how I teach my visitors.
3/23/2011 12:49 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: These acts must be identified as hate crimes, prosecuted vigorously, and condemned community-wide.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Great Christin. We need to take lessons from You. That is fantastic.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: Christine, that's so important.
3/23/2011 12:50 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: I have many other figures and symbols in my house, too.
3/23/2011 12:51 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: The whole idea of this brochure came into for exactly that reason to teach every one about this symbol. I have brought many different relics and symbols from the various countries I have visited and are in our living room.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: mani.saravanan said: This is an educative information and we must explore the means to educate the symbol globaly with the modern high tech
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: It's important for everyone to understand that we can be authentic practioners of our own faiths and still appreciate the symbols and values of other faiths. It doesn't dilute our own practice to understand and admire other teachings.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: So true.
3/23/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: Lin said: What about freedom of speech?
3/23/2011 12:53 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Thanks Mani for that suggestion. WE need to explore many mechanism including this You tube and Face book and other wenb 2.0 adn all other means fo rthis educcation
3/23/2011 12:53 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: In the U.S., the symbol of the swastika itself is not prohibited like it is in some European countries. Freedom of speech and religion are fundamental to our pluralistic society and are the reasons why minority communities can thrive.
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Christine Arnold: private message to Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et).
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: HI Lin in what fashion. Anyone is free to exercise their freedom to speak. But we educating every one else about this symbols and others is part of that freedom of expression
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: The swastika has a taboo associated with it, but it is not outlawed.
3/23/2011 12:54 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: I totally agree.
3/23/2011 12:55 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: People are free to be hateful as long as they are not commiting crimes of hate and are not inciting violence.
3/23/2011 12:55 pm (et) Melanie Maron Pell: People are also free to be ignorant, so our job is to try to educate!
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Time is flying so I want to put the declaration that we spoke about inthe video - Let me try.
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Swastika is an ancient and greatly auspicious symbol of the Hindu tradition. It is inscribed on
3/23/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: Clark Lobenstine said: But we must value our freedom of speech with our responsibility to use that freedom. As someone on the Supreme Court said, 'freedom of speech does not mean you can shout
3/23/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator:
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: How true!
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: Declaration of the Second Hindu-Jewish Leadership Summit, February 2008,
3/23/2011 12:58 pm (et) Siva Subramanian: What was given above is from this declaratin posted earlier
3/23/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Ok folks, we're going to wrap up today. Thank you for your participation today. If you are interested in further communication with IFC or our speakers, please email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. We hope to see you back here next week, same place, same time, the topic will be “The Role that Religion Played and Will Play in the 2011 People’s Movement Uprisings in the Arab World,” featuring Ms. Sahar Taman.
3/23/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
3/23/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org.
3/23/2011 1:03 pm (et) Moderator: logs off on 3/23/2011 1:03 pm (et).
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