Friday, June 24, 2011

Models of Interreligious Dialogue: The Bookclub

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXy5ZEJtq6g

6/24/2011 11:44 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 11:44 am (et).
6/24/2011 11:44 am (et) Mary: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 11:44 am (et).
6/24/2011 11:46 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 11:46 am (et).
6/24/2011 11:49 am (et) Christa: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 11:49 am (et).
6/24/2011 11:53 am (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 11:53 am (et).
6/24/2011 11:55 am (et) Carol Flett: logs in on 6/24/2011 11:55 am (et).
6/24/2011 11:55 am (et) Hussong: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 11:55 am (et).
6/24/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
6/24/2011 12:00 pm (et) bexgee: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 12:00 pm (et).
6/24/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘Models of Interreligious Dialogue: The Bookclub,’ with Rev. Carol Flett of St. Albans Episcopal Church and IFC Board Member. For more information on the group she talks about, the Daughters of Abraham, visit http://daughtersofabraham.com/.
6/24/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
6/24/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues.
6/24/2011 12:07 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I remember talking to my grandmother's pastor and she also has an interfaith book club with additional activities. I think it's a great idea :]
6/24/2011 12:07 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Do (can) these Interfaith book clubs involve people of religions beyond the Abrahamic faiths?
6/24/2011 12:07 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Do they involve any men as well as women?
6/24/2011 12:07 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: How many people are typically active in any given book group?
6/24/2011 12:07 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Where in the DC area are the two groups meeting? How can we start another one in a different location?
6/24/2011 12:08 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Some years ago Religion & Ethics Newsweekly ran a feature piece on this book group: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/september-29-2006/daughters-of-abraham-book-club/3495/
6/24/2011 12:08 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: What have been some of your favorite reads in this group? (sorry about all my questions but this is the last one - for now)
6/24/2011 12:08 pm (et) Carol Flett: I have been asked if we would include women from other faith traditions, and we have not because this particular group was founded on the Abrahamic traditions. But another group could begin by including women from other faith traditions.
6/24/2011 12:09 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Why did they begin with just the Abrahamic traditions?
6/24/2011 12:09 pm (et) Carol Flett: I have also been asked if men could join, and we have also said, no, because this particular group is founded by women for women. But another group could form that includes both men and women.
6/24/2011 12:10 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Do feel it is a more open setting because it is just women?
6/24/2011 12:10 pm (et) Carol Flett: Yes, I was part of the video done by Religion and Ethics in 2006 and we were also filmed bv Hallmark network and shown on JetBlue!
6/24/2011 12:11 pm (et) Carol Flett: The question of women only is interesting. It has been my experience that women begin trusting each other sooner than men do, and we develop community more easily than men do.
6/24/2011 12:12 pm (et) Carol Flett: We have several favorite books. The most recent one was "God is not one" by Stephen Prothero, which describes the differences between the 8 religions included in his book.
6/24/2011 12:13 pm (et) Carol Flett: I think it would be interesting to hear how men's book groups work. I have not known many men who participate in book groups.
6/24/2011 12:13 pm (et) micasd: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 12:13 pm (et).
6/24/2011 12:13 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Also, you mention women from other countries...those countries are pretty male dominated, so it probably would change the dynamic.
6/24/2011 12:14 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I have heard of that book by Prothero but hesitate to take a look at it as I prefer to focus on similarities than differences. I also think the title is off-putting as well as inaccurate of what we really believe. God is one, it is religions that are not one.
6/24/2011 12:14 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: How did the women in your group respond to the suggestions of that book?
6/24/2011 12:14 pm (et) Carol Flett: It might be interesting to have a couples group. I know that interfaith dinner groups work well with couples.
6/24/2011 12:15 pm (et) Aaron: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/24/2011 12:15 pm (et).
6/24/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: Have you ever looked just at the separate sacred texts?
6/24/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: To try and find the commonalities of certain messages perhaps?
6/24/2011 12:16 pm (et) Carol Flett: The title is off putting - probably a publisher's idea. It takes a year or so in an interfaith group before participants feel comfortable or confident to discuss the differences between us, or to critique their own faith tradition with others of another faith.
6/24/2011 12:16 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Hussong, seems that such a study/discussion of sacred texts might make these groups more academic than intended. Carol?
6/24/2011 12:17 pm (et) Carol Flett: I am in another interfaith dialogue group, the Abrahamic Roundtable that studies the sacred texts of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The book group has done a bit of "show and tell" with our sacred texts, but not a study.
6/24/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: How about a similar styled MOVIE discussion group? There are many movies with a religious theme
6/24/2011 12:18 pm (et) Carol Flett: Yes, that Abrahamic Roundtable is actually called an "academic" model, and the goal is not community building, but education for use in our teaching.
6/24/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: The recent PBS play 'God on Trial' (holocaust concentration camp prisoners debate the role of God in the holocaust)
6/24/2011 12:19 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: Yes Laura I was asking with more of an academic focus. Most of my questions will always have something to do with academia and research :]
6/24/2011 12:19 pm (et) Carol Flett: I have also organized the model of film dialogues, using films from 20,000 Dialogues by Unity Productions Foundation. They are great films, developed for interfaith dialogue, post screening.
6/24/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: what was the first meeting like?
6/24/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: i feel like could have been awkward/hesitant knowing that you were gathering to broach difficult issues...or was it easier because you knew everyone was there intending to do so?
6/24/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Or did the planning stages break the ice enough?
6/24/2011 12:21 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Yes, how does one get such a group started and then keep it going?
6/24/2011 12:21 pm (et) Carol Flett: The first meeting was awkward, as any first meeting can be. We began with an interfaith book - The Tent of Abraham, so we were all on the same level.nt.
6/24/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Yea, I mean I can see initial interest, but this can't be easy to keep people coming...
6/24/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: at least at the beginning
6/24/2011 12:22 pm (et) Carol Flett: We include a bit of food, and that is important. We also meet twice a year for a potluck supper and spend time socializing at the beginning of each year, and at the end.
6/24/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I have an older women student in my class this summer who does read a lot of interesting religiously themed books. She might like to join your group (or be included in the start of another such group in our area). Who can we contact if we want to join the group?
6/24/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Mary said: So part of the process in keeping this going is building a community where people feel comfortable
6/24/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: What was the first difficult topic you discussed (if you can remember) and would you say the friendships came first?
6/24/2011 12:24 pm (et) Carol Flett: Keeping it going is work. It involves staying in touch through emails, reminding members of the date and book being read and discussed. And responding to pastoral issues that may arise. Women want to know that we care about each other.
6/24/2011 12:24 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Does the intimacy developed amongst old timers make it difficult for new women to join an established group?
6/24/2011 12:25 pm (et) Carol Flett: Adding new members is permitted in September and January, so they are not stepping in throughout the year. And they must have read Huston Smith's book before, so they don't enter asking questions that the old-timers have already discussed.
6/24/2011 12:25 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: Have there ever been outright arguments or tense moments? I'm sure that could happen..
6/24/2011 12:26 pm (et) Carol Flett: We have agreed NOT to discuss political issues, such as Israel/Palestine, etc.
6/24/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: My earlier question about the LOCATION of the DC groups remains unanswered? Again, if we want to get involved, how do we connect with these existing groups (or start our own)?
6/24/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: and how large is a typcial group (how many women attend)
6/24/2011 12:27 pm (et) Carol Flett: The differences between us that have been highlighted are more between Christians and Muslims than between Jews and Muslims.
6/24/2011 12:27 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Hussong - arguments? not amongst women ;-)
6/24/2011 12:27 pm (et) Carol Flett: Please contact my email to inquire about joining. revflett@yahoo.com - it's hard to keep up with the questions.
6/24/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Carol, interesting (the highlighted differences) - is that simply because there might be fewer Jews involved?
6/24/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Or maybe it is just the historical circumstances...
6/24/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: or geographic?
6/24/2011 12:29 pm (et) Carol Flett: We have a ground rule that if someone says something offensive, they can say Ouch. And explain why what was said is inaccurate or offensive. We all have experienced the use of names or pronunciations that are hurtful, and done unwittingly.
6/24/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I do seem to hear more about Christian-Muslim dialogue than Jewish-Muslim, at least in America
6/24/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: what about differences between Jews and Christians? I imagine that is a more familar/common issue (but maybe not?)
6/24/2011 12:30 pm (et) Carol Flett: There are an equal number of Jewish and Christian women, and fewer Muslim women.
6/24/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Do you think there is a reason for the demographics?
6/24/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Why do you think the Jews and Muslims have less of an issue with each other than the Christians and Muslims?
6/24/2011 12:31 pm (et) Carol Flett: Christians have the Trinity and use images of God, and don't have any dietary restrictions. Jews and Muslims have many things in common, even the root of some of their languages.
6/24/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Laura, I did not mean it in that way, only that it is taking part in a predominately Christian country, and also there are a lot of issues that stem from the succession of religious movements.
6/24/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Right, so why don't the Jews and Christians have the same sort of issues that the Muslims and Christians seem to have?
6/24/2011 12:32 pm (et) Carol Flett: The demographics of the area of the book group will be a factor in the membership of the group. I am hoping to start a group in Alexandria, VA, where there are many more Muslims than in northwest DC.
6/24/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I'm pretty sure they do...at least nominally.
6/24/2011 12:34 pm (et) Carol Flett: There are differences between each of the Abrahamic faiths, and we discuss them and learn to appreciate why these differences are important to each of us.
6/24/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: How long did it take to be able to delve in?
6/24/2011 12:35 pm (et) Carol Flett: About a year.
6/24/2011 12:35 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Is it mainly novels/fiction you read?
6/24/2011 12:35 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Oh, wait, you earlier did mention Prothro's book, which is non-fiction
6/24/2011 12:36 pm (et) Carol Flett: No. This year we have been reading more non-fiction - about the religious landscape of America. In addition to God is not one, we just finished, Journey into America, by Akbar Ahmed.
6/24/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: you basically read one book a month or do some books take several months to get through?
6/24/2011 12:37 pm (et) Carol Flett: Next we are reading, The Dignity of Difference, by Jonathan Sacks, chief rabbi of the UK
6/24/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: What did you talk about during that year it took to get comfortable? I guess I just mean how were the friendships that allowed you to delve develop?
6/24/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: Mary said: Would you say that non-fiction is better suited for the purposes of the group?
6/24/2011 12:38 pm (et) Carol Flett: Most of the books we read in one month, but Prothero's book and Ahmed's book we took two months each to read and discuss.
6/24/2011 12:40 pm (et) Carol Flett: It depends on the make-up of the group. The DC group is reading more non-fiction than the Massachusetts groups. DC seems more highly educated and likes non-fiction more than fiction. But we have some months when we have a topic and members of the group present - Dying and Death from each tradition.
6/24/2011 12:41 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: Did you read "The Faith Club"? It seemed like that book got a lot of attention and brought the idea of interfaith book clubs to light. It might be interesting to hear what kind of common ground is being shared and/or discovered in other small clubs around the country.
6/24/2011 12:41 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Over the years, is there much turnover of membership? Are there the same women at each monthly meeting or do quite a few skip months?
6/24/2011 12:41 pm (et) Carol Flett: We did not read the Faith Club, though I did. It was OK. But it was only from the perspective on one women from each tradition. The gift of the D of Abr groups is we hear from a variety of traditions within each faith. Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism for example, Shia and Sunni Muslim. RC and Episcopalian.
6/24/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Interesting format. As a college professor, I'm thinking this is something you should get college credit for! Perhaps an idea for a special course we can do at a college
6/24/2011 12:43 pm (et) Carol Flett: There are women who have participated for four years and some for 2-3 and some new. People have moved, had personal changes, or have gotten what they wanted from the experience and left the group.
6/24/2011 12:43 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: And approximately how many attend any given meeting?
6/24/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: IOW, what is a good size for such a discussion group?
6/24/2011 12:44 pm (et) Carol Flett: About 12-15 attend each group each month, but who comes varies depending on their schedule. There are 25 in each group.
6/24/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I have not read but a few pages of the book, it didn't grab my attention much either. Perhaps your club should write a book about your experiences!
6/24/2011 12:45 pm (et) Carol Flett: 12 is probably ideal. But then there are illnesses, vacations, professional or family commitments, and so I like to have 25 belong, so that there are 12-15 who attend each month.
6/24/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Mary said: or a blog!
6/24/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: You mentioned you participate in other dialogue fomrats, what would you say is different/special about the book club experience?
6/24/2011 12:46 pm (et) Carol Flett: I have been tempted to write a book about this and other dialogue experiences. I also have an interfaith family.
6/24/2011 12:47 pm (et) Carol Flett: The book group involves the laity - grass roots. There are a few women who are also clergy, but we don't use that role in the group. It is all volunteer.
6/24/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: So I'm guessing the focus is somewhat different? Not as focused on pastoral issues
6/24/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: But maybe on home life and things like that?
6/24/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Has your group read the Red Tent?
6/24/2011 12:50 pm (et) Carol Flett: It has been great to learn how each of the Abrahamic traditions regard marriage, divorce, death and other moments like these.sages
6/24/2011 12:51 pm (et) Carol Flett: We have not read the Red Tent, but a few of the other groups in Mass. have. All the books read by all the groups are found on the www.daughtersofabraham.com website under book list.
6/24/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: So the planning is done by the groups themselves?
6/24/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I guess that wouldwork out for the best, who knows what interests the group has better than the group.
6/24/2011 12:53 pm (et) Carol Flett: Yes, good point I forgot to mention. I have invited 2 Jewish, 2 Christian and 2 Muslim women to meet with me as a leadership team to discuss book selection and any other issues that have arisen in the groups.
6/24/2011 12:54 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: So like a steering committee?
6/24/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: How is it chosen and do people like the way it is set up with equal representation of the faiths?
6/24/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Or as you said, there are the different divisions within the faith so how are they dealt with?
6/24/2011 12:56 pm (et) Carol Flett: We also have a groundrule that we will speak up if we find ourselves in a situation outside the group where we hear misinformation about Jews, Christians or Musims. We will not perpetuation misinformation and politely inform others of our experience with the discussions.
6/24/2011 12:57 pm (et) Carol Flett: The leadership team has included 1 Sunni, 1 Shia; 1 Orthodox Jew, 1 Reform Jew; 1 Lutheran 1 Episcopalian
6/24/2011 12:58 pm (et) Carol Flett: The leadership team are those willing and available to meet with me. It has changed over the years as circumstances change within the group.
6/24/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: So it is again that time where we must be finishing up. Rev. Flett, would you like to say any final words?
6/24/2011 12:59 pm (et) Carol Flett: Thank you to all who watched and listened and asked questions. I hope you will contact me if you have further questions. Peace, Salaam, Shalom
6/24/2011 12:59 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker please contact her at ccinterfaith@yahoo.com. Next week we will be taking a break (sorry for all these breaks, but summer is a hectic time!). The following week we will return to hear from Michael Turner on IFC’s Values Supplement to the Teaching About Religion notebook project.
6/24/2011 12:59 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
6/24/2011 1:00 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org and sign up for our bi-monthly e-newsletter by emailing me, again the address is rebeccac@ifcmw.org.

Friday, June 17, 2011

How To Dialogue

The corresponding video can be view at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb3c1kjKeuQ

6/17/2011 11:46 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 11:46 am (et).
6/17/2011 11:47 am (et) Christa : private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 11:47 am (et).
6/17/2011 11:47 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 11:47 am (et).
6/17/2011 11:47 am (et) Mary: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 11:47 am (et).
6/17/2011 11:51 am (et) Hengist: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 11:51 am (et).
6/17/2011 11:57 am (et) Iris Firemoon: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 11:57 am (et).
6/17/2011 11:57 am (et) Clark Lobenstine: logs in on 6/17/2011 11:57 am (et).
6/17/2011 11:59 am (et) Hussong: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 11:59 am (et).
6/17/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
6/17/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘How to Dialogue,’ with Rev. Clark Lobenstine, Executive Director of IFC.
6/17/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
6/17/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues.
6/17/2011 12:01 pm (et) medina1: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 12:01 pm (et).
6/17/2011 12:02 pm (et) norm.cohen: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 12:02 pm (et).
6/17/2011 12:05 pm (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 12:05 pm (et).
6/17/2011 12:10 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: You speak about striking up these conversations in pretty casual settings, but how do you know if someone is amenable to such questions?
6/17/2011 12:10 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I really like the concept of starting with the small things we have in common here in the US before we start to talk about goings-on in the Middle East.
6/17/2011 12:11 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Good question, Susan. Starting with casual conversation and in the process I believe you will find out if the other person is amenable to such questions.
6/17/2011 12:12 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Where are the subject that get sticky, perhaps if you get to them too soon?
6/17/2011 12:12 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: An understanding of applicable ground rules is important. If some areas are to be out of bounds, possibly owing to two or more of the participants having irreconcilable differences, it should be understood before hand. More important is that no one should expect to be convincing. We have different points of view, and if sometimes our ideas overlap, it is nice, but we are different and the important thing is to understand each other's viewpoint, recognizing that their ideas serve their needs just as ours
serve us.
6/17/2011 12:14 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: hengist: 'agree to disagree'
6/17/2011 12:14 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Some of the sticky issues are quite obvious. For example, the Middle East is one that frequently creates very sticky situations and information through the media should make this obvious.
6/17/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Susan: key is to LISTEN to the other to see what they might be interested in talking deeper about
6/17/2011 12:15 pm (et) Moderator: Christa said: I have a questing - would be your suggestiong for opening up dialogue in a place that is not so open or diverse? For example I would love to bring religious diversity to my school in rural PA, but there's nothing around and no one willing to talk
6/17/2011 12:16 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Or what if you are confronted with those who aren't interested in 'agreeing to disagree'?
6/17/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: If you are talking to someone whose flashpoints are unknown, perhaps the best thing you can do is to let them talk about their position and feelings. Ask questions that cannot be answered with a yes or no. And when you speak refer to what they have said, with respect, showing that what they said is important.
6/17/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: A common thread through our conversations has centered around the goal of dialogue being to understand one another, but I know plenty of people who are interested in say evangelizing instead.
6/17/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: Christa said: exactly - what do you say to someone like that?
6/17/2011 12:18 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: I'm surprised to learn of a place that has no one around who is willing to talk. I bet there are such people and such situations. There is so much more openness these days to persons of different faiths, cultures and nationalities. does that give you
6/17/2011 12:19 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Can you say anything?
6/17/2011 12:19 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Yes, in all or most of our traditions there are people who really just want you to believe as they do. That's the one-way communication I spoke of in the opening reflection -- we talk about you or we talk to you.
6/17/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: My students are often surprised to find how religiously diverse even their rural area might be - even if its just diversity within Christianity (different denominations)
6/17/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Christa said: Yes, I think it's just a matter of accepting that some people just aren't willing to listen to what anyone else has to say... but perhaps I'm wrong
6/17/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I have a question when you're ready, Reverend. What do you do when you talk to someone about their faith religion and you have differing views on facts? Example: I state one ideology in a religion that is backed up by scholarly thought and general acceptance, but he refuses to believe it and believes that it is not true within his religion.
6/17/2011 12:20 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: And on the one hand, that is not surprising. If I am found something wonderful I want you to have it too! But that is not interfaith dialogue or dialogue at all.
6/17/2011 12:21 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: We have a saying that no one can fill their cup from your pitcher until they have emptied their cup first. Get them to talk about what they believe. When they begin to run down, you can respectfully submit alternatives to their view point, not linking your own view point to one in opposition.
6/17/2011 12:22 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Thanks Lillian, for your question. A lot depends on whether I am willing to accept that not everyone will agree with me or needs to agree with me.
6/17/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Hussong, yes it seems to be that some religious claims are mutually exclusive, but the use of facts is somewhat troubling, Lesslie Newbigin, a Protestant theologian has written about the misconception of a fact v. a belief.
6/17/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Even scientific facts are based off of some assumptions, so can we truly look at any statement as absolute fact?
6/17/2011 12:24 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: If not, it may be easier to point out and agree to disagree...
6/17/2011 12:24 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: Yes, exactly. Between popular faith and the scholarly look at faith (and to go further a scholarly analysis of sacred texts), there can sometimes be a huge gap.
6/17/2011 12:24 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: And a person may simply not be ready to agree with you today, at this time, or even reach points of agreement, but that you may say something that may, at some later date/time, strike a chord, and cause them to reconsider what you said.
6/17/2011 12:24 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: I think that when we are speaking about religious understandings, we are talking about beliefs vs. facts. Did Jesus die on the cross. I say yes, as a Christian. Muslims disagree strongly. The Qur'an says that "one who looked like him died on the cross."
6/17/2011 12:25 pm (et) Moderator: norm.cohen said: I know some people do not want to engage in dialogue but only want to tell what they believe
6/17/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Smile and nod situation?
6/17/2011 12:26 pm (et) Moderator: Christa said: or just accept that their main goal is to put down everyone else..?
6/17/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Eventually though, the smile and nodding won't be enough...how do you get someone to listen? You can't really force them can you?
6/17/2011 12:28 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Yes, there are people who only what to tell what they believe. But you can certainly find others who are ready to talk, even if they are not ready to agree with you
6/17/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Let them talk, and ask questions so that you are sure you understand their position. If they are not interested in finding out what you believe after they have stated their belief and you have indicated understanding, they are in for a rocky road of evangelism.
6/17/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Rocky road? I feel like after such conversations, I the one stuck there, as they pose questions, 'Well, if you see what I mean, why don't you convert?' or something along those lines...
6/17/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I tend to assume that when I do not agree with someone, it may be because I am not fully understanding them. But it seems that this is not the sort of assumption that most people make
6/17/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: If someone is insecure about their beliefs, so that they feel unable to listen to another's ideas, they are not ready for dialogue, and the best thing you can do is be polite about disagreement.
6/17/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I recall when I was in graduate school taking a class on Islam, I also went week after week to the Muslim Student Association meetings/discussions. After a number of months there, they got around to pressing me: am I ready to convert? After a couple of weeks of that I stopped attending the meetings
6/17/2011 12:31 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: I think one answer to the persons who are only ready to share what they believe is to be clear you disagree. If you simply nod and smile, you may well get into the uncomforable position of them wondering why you don't convert.
6/17/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I was there to learn from them but they seemed to think I was there to eventually convert
6/17/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: two different agendas in one stting
6/17/2011 12:32 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Insecurity is a tentative place and usually transitory (I don't really want to reveal how much of a sci-fi nerd I am, but I am definitely thinking along the lines of Yoda and the path to the dark side...) so how can we catch someone before they lean the wrong way?
6/17/2011 12:33 pm (et) Moderator: norm.cohen said: In some situtions that can further add to your difficulties and suspicions by others
6/17/2011 12:33 pm (et) karen: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/17/2011 12:33 pm (et).
6/17/2011 12:33 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: When it comes to theism vs. atheism, I think it is quite possible that both sides are aware of the same set of facts, but have different emotional values attached to those facts. Experience shapes how we believe what we believe.
6/17/2011 12:33 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Laura's experience is unfortunately not unusual. It speaks to Hengist's point of rocky evangelism.
6/17/2011 12:34 pm (et) karen: private message to Moderator: logs off on 6/17/2011 12:34 pm (et).
6/17/2011 12:35 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Thanks, Hengist. I would add that the same may be said for persons of different faiths -- aware of the same 'facts' (I'd prefer to say beliefs) but have very different perceptions of them. Emotions may well be one of the causes. So too are the community of faith or belief that I have committed to.
6/17/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: People in more urban areas often have friends or neighbors of different faiths that they speak and interact with regularly but never open the topic to discussing religion. That would be an ideal place to start the interfaith dialogue
6/17/2011 12:36 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: or, the community faith or belief that I want to be part of, and therefore say/believe things that others in that group believe in.
6/17/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: start the dialogue with people you already know and respect and trust simply as persons
6/17/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: that sounds a bit like you want to evangelize them! And who are we to tell them they're leaning the wrong way?
6/17/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: and who know and respect and trust you back]
6/17/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: The trick is find out what they are willing to talk about. On some levels, we can be more comfortable talking about celebrations and customs, rather than
theology.

6/17/2011 12:39 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Hussong: do you mean that I want to evangelize the persons in the group that I want to belong to? If so, you misunderstood me. I'm saying/believing things that others in the group that I want to belong to believe.
6/17/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Hussong, sorry I did not mean for it to sound that way. By 'leaning the wrong way' I guess I meant towards further exclusivism and unwillingness to listen.
6/17/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Hengist, to whom are your comments directed? I don't see where my comments suggest a desire to convert others
6/17/2011 12:40 pm (et) Moderator: I believe you are referring to Hussong's comment, Laura S, is that correct?
6/17/2011 12:41 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Yes, Hussong
6/17/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: If I could direct everyone to earlier comment, where she mentions 'stopping people before they leant the wrong way' I believe we will find a better flow. I am sorry for the confusing way of posting these comments.
6/17/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Susan's earlier comment*
6/17/2011 12:43 pm (et) Moderator: norm.cohen said: dialogue needs to just be a simple conversaton of ideas without any agenda from there some extent of understanding of difference might be achieved
6/17/2011 12:43 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: If you are comfortable enough, you should try to project the idea that you believe that every difference between belief systems has a reason, that should be respected, coming from their history, culture, or environment. Believing that, you can reassure them that you are not interested in proving them only right when they agree with you, but also in understanding their differences so that you can understand their rightness in their context.
6/17/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: recognize similarities as a place for connection and respect differences as something interesting to know and understand
6/17/2011 12:45 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: That is a difficult thing to admit Hengist, when many beliefs are held as universal.
6/17/2011 12:45 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: We have focused a lot on the challenges we can have trying to start an interfaith dialogue if the person is not ready for it. What are some learnings we can share from having been in dialogue with others who may well have disagreed with us but whom we respect?
6/17/2011 12:46 pm (et) norm.cohen: private message to Moderator: logs off on 6/17/2011 12:46 pm (et).
6/17/2011 12:46 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I think my most jarring epiphany in that regard Clark, has been that those disagreements may be with people of your same faith even.
6/17/2011 12:47 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: that certainly happens and is a wonderful reminder that we are not all on the same page!
6/17/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Clark: I recall a dialogue on the question of a personal god. Turns out that only through deep dialogue did it finally come out that what we meant by
6/17/2011 12:48 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Clark: I recall a dialogue on the question of a personal god. Turns out that only through deep dialogue did it finally come out that what we meant by 'personal' was different. We actually believed about God much closer to each other than originally apparent from the langauge we used
6/17/2011 12:48 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Is God a 'person' vs. our experience of God is personal
6/17/2011 12:48 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: I can remember a conversation with an agnostic and an atheist, in which nobody changed their positions, but I and the atheist discovered some common understandings of the the philosophical validity of Justice.
6/17/2011 12:49 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: one of our founders said that he often found it easier to come to the meetings of the InterFaith Conference, found more readiness to discuss our similarities and differences than he often found with others of this same tradition.
6/17/2011 12:49 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: So getting beyond language to actual concepts seems to be a way to take disagreements and make them into similarities.
6/17/2011 12:50 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: We may find we agree or we may just better understand why and where we disagree!
6/17/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: another example: when Jews and Christians disagree on Jesus' status as the messiah and neither party is aware that their understanding of the concept of 'messiah' is quite different. By Jewish understanding, Jesus clearly did not fulfill their expectations for the role while Christians seem to have a different idea of what that role actually is
6/17/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Terminology is important. In China, what they call 'Gods' are closer to what we would call 'Mythic heroes' What we think of as God is closer to what they call 'Heaven', less personal but just as omnipotent and omniscient.
6/17/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: It is interesting because the Catholic Church has leaned away from some of this tradition, but Medieval theology was focused on the minute distinctions of language, what did such-and-such actually mean.
6/17/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: We are talking here about interfaith dialogue (dialoging on dialogue) but how about one week we actually HAVE a dialogue on a specific topic - model dialogue?  
6/17/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: Well, we have reached that time of the day, where we must be closing. Please finish any closing comments!
6/17/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I think I'd have to agree with the Chinese then, Henghist! I've always thought heaven was supposed to be closer to God (hell being the absence of God's presence)... not actually a place!
6/17/2011 12:58 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: going back to what Laura and Hengist said about the importance of language, the importance of language itself is an important learning of dialogue. We can often discover that we assumed the other person agreed with or 'knew' was different from what I meant by the same word or phrase
6/17/2011 12:59 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: But it is only through dialgoue that we get to that point of realizing we have different definitions or understandings of the same word
6/17/2011 12:59 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: So: before we disagree, we need to be sure we are truly understanding the other
6/17/2011 12:59 pm (et) Clark Lobenstine: Amen, Laura!
6/17/2011 12:59 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Remember that terms such as Messiah have different meanings at different point in history. Martin Luther read the Old Testament, and concluded that the Jews must be lying to him because he did not get the same meaning from the literal text as they did.
6/17/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker please contact me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. Next week we will be discussing ‘Models of Interreligious Dialogue: the Bookclub,’ with Rev. Carol Flett of St. Albans Episcopal Parish.
6/17/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
6/17/2011 1:01 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org and sign up for our bi-monthly e-newsletter by emailing me, again the address is rebeccac@ifcmw.org.

Friday, June 3, 2011

An Islamic Perspective on Religious (Non)Violence

The corresponding video can be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoTjaIF2vk

6/3/2011 11:46 am (et) Hengist: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:46 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:46 am (et) Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:46 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:46 am (et) Arif: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:46 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:47 am (et) christa_levko: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:47 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:49 am (et) Mary: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:49 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:54 am (et) Johari Abdul Malik: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:54 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:55 am (et) Laura S: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:55 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:57 am (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Greetings to Johari (we met last fall at your class at NOVA)
6/3/2011 11:57 am (et) Johari Abdul Malik: hi
6/3/2011 11:57 am (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Glad you could make it
6/3/2011 11:58 am (et) Susan: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:58 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:59 am (et) Hussong: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 11:59 am (et).
6/3/2011 11:59 am (et) Moderator: Welcome! This is Rebecca from the InterFaith Conference (IFC) and I will be your moderator. As this is still new, let me explain how this will work. On the right, you will see a video playing of our current topic to get the conversation going. If you have a comment and/or question send it along to me, the moderator. As long as I deem it appropriate, the comment will be posted to everyone and the speaker will have the opportunity to answer your question.
6/3/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: Today, our topic is ‘An Islamic View of Religious (Non)Violence,’ with Imam Johari Abdul Malik, Muslim member of IFC’s Board and one of the imams at Dar Al-Hijrah. For more information on his work visit: http://www.imamjohari.com/A_Call_To_Non-Violent_Resistance/Welcome.html.
6/3/2011 12:00 pm (et) ssawmell: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 12:00 pm (et).
6/3/2011 12:00 pm (et) Moderator: As always, I would like to remind you of the rules of our engagement. This is a respectful place where we come together to learn more about the religions of the world. Whether you agree or disagree, we welcome your comments and questions that are posed in a respectful manner. Please no profane or offensive remarks, they will not be posted. Also, this is a place of learning, so please refrain from ‘soapboxing.’ If there are any issues or questions about this, they can be submitted along with the comments pertaining to our topic. I am here to make this a pleasant and educational experience for all, so enjoy and remember there are no stupid questions, just hostile ones!
6/3/2011 12:01 pm (et) Moderator: You can now view the beginning comments on the right. As you listen, please feel free to start sending questions or comments (YES, we want your comments). Also, the video will remain within the sidebar, so feel free to return to it as you wish. Our chat window automatically refreshes to keep the flow going, but if you wish to view the whole of the conversation, just hit the archive button. And lastly, PLEASE do not use double quotes as it led to some issues.
6/3/2011 12:02 pm (et) Denise: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 12:02 pm (et).
6/3/2011 12:06 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: May I ask if you are a Sunni or a Shi'a?
6/3/2011 12:07 pm (et) Moderator: ssawmell said: Imam, given Rep. Peter King's Islamophic hearing on radicalization, and his intention to hold another hearing focused on the growth of Islamic militancy in American prisons, are you and other Islamic leaders (such as Imams Hendi and Feisal) reaching out in the spirit of dialogue to King's chief of staff or to the representative himself?
6/3/2011 12:12 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: I do not consider myself to be a shia therefore I guess that makes me sunni
6/3/2011 12:13 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The king hearings I think gave a great opening to begin a dialogue around radicalization.
6/3/2011 12:13 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: what PERCENTAGE of those books are about the Prophet's battles compared to the amount of writing about other aspects of his life? IOW, how out of proportion is it to be referencing these books vs the others? And why do you think it is the battles that are so much more appealing?
6/3/2011 12:13 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: (I think it is simply human nature to be more excited by stories of battles and violence than of peaceful coexistence (just look at our video games and movies)
6/3/2011 12:13 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: King's staff is not that open to much dialogue but others have come forward to dialogue.
6/3/2011 12:14 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: There is a new interfaith effort called Shoulder to shoulder with nation religious leaders
6/3/2011 12:15 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Laura: I think the popular narrative of battle comes out of a history of oppressed groups looking at his life like Americans look a westerns-cowboys and indians
6/3/2011 12:16 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: It is an immature human thing.
6/3/2011 12:16 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: What does jihad mean in your narrative?
6/3/2011 12:17 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Jihad- the root - Ja-ha-da in arabic to struggle to strive. My problem is that this is too often seen as violence.
6/3/2011 12:17 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The Prophet spent 13 years of his 23 years as a prophet in non-violent resistance in Mecca.
6/3/2011 12:17 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Battles appeal to a certain level of desperation as well. It is easier to dismiss an opponent's arguments in a context of violence, than in a context of dialogue. And when we feel disadvantaged we have an excuse to kick over the table of negotiation. It is notable that the Prophet Muhammad never rejected dialogue.
6/3/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: ironically, the name Israel also means to 'struggle' (with god and prevale) - the name given to Jacob
6/3/2011 12:18 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Indeed
6/3/2011 12:18 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: What is the struggle in Islam?
6/3/2011 12:19 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The jihad al-Akbar: the greatest Jihad is against the weakness of self.
6/3/2011 12:19 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: I am not saying that islam is passive in nature. but most fighting is defensive in the history of the prophet M.
6/3/2011 12:20 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The battles that followed him unfortunately were not the best example of that tradition.
6/3/2011 12:20 pm (et) Moderator: christa_levko said: It seems popular culture promotes violence as a way to overcome self weakness - do you think that's where a lot of the violence in Islam comes from? If not why do you think it is prevalent?
6/3/2011 12:21 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Kind of that macho image, Christa?
6/3/2011 12:22 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The popular narrative is a medieval narrative
6/3/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I'm interested in the historical context of the revelation in the Qur'an that pertains to various battles, Badr, Uhud, etc. I encounter a lot of people who think the Qur'an is violent in nature but do not understand the timeline of revelation and the period of events that happened when Allah's message was revealed.
6/3/2011 12:22 pm (et) Moderator: christa_levko said: Yeah, I'm not sure if the media image of masculinity is as popular elsewhere as it is in America but it seems to be a major factor in volence here
6/3/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: I think this contributes a lot to that false 'understanding of jihad' who think it is all about waging wars, not a defense
6/3/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: It could be argued that those who turn aside from the greater Jihad to devote themselves to warfare against those who reject Islam have fallen away from Islam in favor of a worship of violence, which alas, is hardly unique to Islam as a social phenomena.
6/3/2011 12:23 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Karen Armstong, in her book 'The Battle for God' (about fundamentalism in the three monotheistic traditions) observes that the modern Islamic militancy is a response to colonialism. Would you agree with this Johari?
6/3/2011 12:23 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The Quran prohibited fighting for the early days of the revelation and then in Medina allowed fight in defense
6/3/2011 12:24 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Fight to convert or to establish Islam on people is prohibited by the Quran. But often Muslims forget this
6/3/2011 12:24 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: I think the violence is a errant response to colonialism.
6/3/2011 12:25 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: That forgetfulness doesn't seem to be a limited focus...the Catholic Church has never officially condoned forced baptism but look at Portugal in 1492
6/3/2011 12:25 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Qurans says that Allah gives soveriegnity to whomever He chooses.
6/3/2011 12:25 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Christ did not have a home, and was a wanderer, while Muhammad had accepted responsibility for the safety and well- being of a community. How can tese two be compared? It is in their similarities, rather than their differences that discoveries need to be made.
6/3/2011 12:26 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The media has negative effect too often on many of us. But our textual understanding
6/3/2011 12:26 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: I think the narratives of all of the prophets and guides have great similarities.
6/3/2011 12:27 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: In a far future world, what do you think would end the Islamic violence? If they could have what they want from this violence, what would that be?
6/3/2011 12:27 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: IOW, what would it take to from US to end their violence?
6/3/2011 12:27 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Jesus was fatherless and Muhammad was fatherless. They where all shepards
6/3/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I think it is important to note that they saw something wrong with the world and set out to better it...I do firmly believe that of the great prophets and guides as you have called them
6/3/2011 12:28 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Violence will never deliver what people really want. Violence begets violence. The prophet when he opens Mecca with the army of 10K they refrain from violence
6/3/2011 12:28 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Do they even know what they are fighting for?
6/3/2011 12:29 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: One of failures of Al-Qaeda is that they do not have an end game.
6/3/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Do they want the whole world to be converted to Islam or do they just want us to stop trying to force their cultures to adopt our form of democracy?
6/3/2011 12:29 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I think its been masked...I would not disagree that much of the violence is politically based, a remnant of colonialism, but it is clouded with religion.
6/3/2011 12:30 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Violence is the fruit of anger not the seed of community
6/3/2011 12:30 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Religion speaks to people in a unique way, so people can use and abuse it.
6/3/2011 12:31 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: One problem is that so few people on any
side have a clear picture of what an end to
conflict would look like. Certainly not in
everybody agreeing to accept one
religious label or another, which could not
happen in a context of violence, anyway.

6/3/2011 12:31 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: I take issue even with the concept of 'Just War' in islam
6/3/2011 12:31 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: War is by definition - A harm
6/3/2011 12:32 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The prophet M tells his companions after surviving a battle says you have just left the lesser jihad and are going to the greater jihad.
6/3/2011 12:33 pm (et) ameriAKR: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 12:33 pm (et).
6/3/2011 12:33 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The non-violent narrative of the Prophet M is now being brought forward.
6/3/2011 12:33 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: the concept of 'just war' is also present in Christianity and in Sikhism. Other religions preach pacifism no matter what. Is there never a righteous reason to stand up for what is right? (not that many wars actually do this but at least in theory)?
6/3/2011 12:33 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Check out Abdul-Ghaffar Khan - he is considered the Muslm Ghandi.
6/3/2011 12:34 pm (et) solfrid: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 12:34 pm (et).
6/3/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: My understanding of the Prophet's life suggested that the Prophet believed that the best war was not as good as a bad peace. Of course, Muhammad believed that God was on Muhammad's side. War merely interferes with the normal exchange of ideas.
6/3/2011 12:34 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Just War theory has always been used to go to war rather than to stop a war
6/3/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: Would you compare the literal approach to Jihad to the more fundamentalist strains of Christianity say? They both seem to have the same kind of mentality in which we look for the most obvious meaning to text
6/3/2011 12:34 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: I guess we can contrast MLKjr's non-violent resistence with that of the Nation of Islam in America (under Malcom X before his conversion)
6/3/2011 12:35 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The movement of Islam only gained ground during periods of peace. This is way he made many concessions in the peace treaty of Hudiabiyyah
6/3/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: It is unfortunate that 'Just' war has been a label demanded by society so that war makers have included a just war formulation. The Kaiser regarded the Belgian resistance to German invasion as criminal.
6/3/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Johari, great point about just war theory always being used to go to war
6/3/2011 12:36 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: Today Islam is rapidly expanding and unfortunately there is much violence though.
6/3/2011 12:36 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The comparison of MLK and MX i'm not sure. Malcolm X talked tough but never engaged in any act of violence. The NOI was banned from carry weapons.
6/3/2011 12:37 pm (et) Moderator: christa_levko said: It seems in any violent activity there is someone who does not see it as 'just'
6/3/2011 12:37 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The lessons from Tahrir sq in Egypt, Tunisia, etc are bringing the NV narrative life.
6/3/2011 12:38 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: all bark and no bite? I did not know that. However that sort of rhetoric will naturally rile up some folks to fight, even if the rules forbid such action (perhaps that's what we are seeing in today's militant Islam?)
6/3/2011 12:38 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Al-Qaeda and Taliban tactics are rejected by most Muslims while they agree with the critique of their own government.
6/3/2011 12:39 pm (et) Moderator: ameriAKR said: i think there are a lot of reasons for the "much violence" that still require solutions..however basic
6/3/2011 12:40 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The PM=Muhammad said Jihad is to speak truth to power
6/3/2011 12:40 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: When people sit on their hands until problems are extreme then they justify violence.
6/3/2011 12:41 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Even I felt that WE should attack Qaddafy - but we waited for decades - we missed the opportunity
6/3/2011 12:41 pm (et) Moderator: ameriAKR said: but are there not different forms of jihad....was your reference to all forms or simply more aggressive forms?
6/3/2011 12:41 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: Perhaps real peace will come as women are more empowered, not just in the Islamic countries, but all over the world. Certainly the more dedicated purveyors of violence have not wanted women's voices heard.
6/3/2011 12:42 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Patience doesn't mean sitting on your hands.
6/3/2011 12:42 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The spirit of resistance to wrong must be birthed in th hearts of everyone.
6/3/2011 12:42 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: 'We must wage peace'
6/3/2011 12:43 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Then the fear of the loss of our life or property will allow us in faith to resist.
6/3/2011 12:43 pm (et) Moderator: christa_levko said: to have the truth heard, all need to be hear... so I would agree with Hengist
6/3/2011 12:43 pm (et) Moderator: Susan said: I would be interested in your reaction to the recent uprisings in the Middle East.
6/3/2011 12:43 pm (et) MSH786: private message to Moderator: logs in on 6/3/2011 12:43 pm (et).
6/3/2011 12:43 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Unfortunately, we must teach the techiques of waging peace.
6/3/2011 12:43 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: How do you think the violence against Sufis in Northern Africa, Pakistan, etc. should be confronted?
6/3/2011 12:44 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The Arab spring is giving rise to the power of NV resistance.
6/3/2011 12:44 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: And also the destruction of dargahs as well?
6/3/2011 12:44 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The sectarian violence is always a divide and conquer strategy
6/3/2011 12:45 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The PM did not attack the Christians in Ethiopia or the Jews of Medina.
6/3/2011 12:46 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: I believe that PM would not distroy the holy places of others.
6/3/2011 12:46 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Literacy is a critical step. Most of the Muslims in the world are illiterate
6/3/2011 12:46 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: Divide and conquer is a strategy that we too have used - first we 'demonize' the enemy (the 'axis of evil') thus making us feel we are being righteous to go to war and fight and kill the enemy
6/3/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: ameriAKR said: does that go to anything bid'a in nature or form?
6/3/2011 12:47 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The real axis of evil: poverty, disease and ignoranc
6/3/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: For me, 'waging' peace means honoring Muhammad in non-Muslim contexts, upholding Islamic values as worth emulating, whatever one's faith background, and acknowledging that Islam. like the older Abrahamic beliefs, is not monolithic.
6/3/2011 12:47 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: then we only end up making our enemy feel on the defensive and thus waging a 'just war' or jihad
6/3/2011 12:48 pm (et) Moderator: Sorry everyone, I posted a bit out of order, please read Laura S's comments as one.
6/3/2011 12:48 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: In America we must model to the world how we live together and that our faiths make our understanding of our individual faiths deeper
6/3/2011 12:48 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: in response to OUR aggression
6/3/2011 12:48 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: I was in Afghanistan recently
6/3/2011 12:49 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Many think that US is like USSR. Anti-god.
6/3/2011 12:49 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: When I told that Islam in a free society is growing they were shocked.
6/3/2011 12:50 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Even from the theatre of war there is a great witness.
6/3/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: christa_levko said: that's not suprising - the news stories that come from America are all intolerance and hate
6/3/2011 12:50 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: The extremists on either side want Muslims in America to be alienated, rather than accepted as a new, valued, enhancement of American life.
6/3/2011 12:51 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: American soldiers are coming home more educated
6/3/2011 12:51 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: We have to fight the battle of diseducation about Islam in America.....
6/3/2011 12:51 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Not the CNN/Fox version of America as Islamophobic
6/3/2011 12:52 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: So what can we do as young adults in college to spread awareness about Islam and peace?
6/3/2011 12:52 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: We must speak to the world about how we live and worship in America.
6/3/2011 12:52 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Many of them will be shocked.
6/3/2011 12:53 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: IFC is a great platform but we can't keep this dialogue a secret
6/3/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: we may need to change our public face - what the world sees of us is materialism, capitalism, sexual immorality...
6/3/2011 12:53 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: greedy individualism
6/3/2011 12:54 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: College is a great place for the Universe of City. Hold dialogues, programs and get to know people from difference backgrounds. This will give you the background to confront ignorance,
6/3/2011 12:54 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: and a superiority attitude that says we think we are 'number 1' in the world
6/3/2011 12:54 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: We care tweet our reality.
6/3/2011 12:55 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: This is not just a problem in the Islamic world. Anybody studying our media, advertising, etc. would get a warped idea of American values, including Americans.
6/3/2011 12:55 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Also people in America must travel and learn first hand.
6/3/2011 12:55 pm (et) Moderator: christa_levko said: every country thinks they are the best - that's not a new concept... but how would we go about changing our image to other countries?
6/3/2011 12:56 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Pew did a studied and published that most Muslims in the world are not anti-america.they are anti-oppression
6/3/2011 12:56 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: do they then see America as oppressive (to them)?
6/3/2011 12:57 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Old ideas have merit. But social networking got Obama elected, help the Tahrir movement and can help us spread peace and understanding
6/3/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Hi All, it is that time of the week, where we must wrap up, so please finish any lingering thoughts.
6/3/2011 12:57 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: We need to tell the story that the Best of America comes from being receptive to the Best of other countries and cultures.
6/3/2011 12:57 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The Americans that people meet in their home countries generally make a good impression on the locals...
6/3/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: This is very true. I was in Istanbul last summer and many of the young Turks I met liked the American people and the culture, but not so much the government.
6/3/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Hussong said: They saw the culture as liberal and embracing, but did not feel as though the American government backed that
6/3/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Laura S said: always, when we get to know the 'other' as a real person, we get a better impression
6/3/2011 12:58 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: And we need to explain to the world that the American experiment has made mistakes but we got at lot right eventually.
6/3/2011 12:58 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: 'You don't trust our government? Well
neither do we!'

6/3/2011 12:59 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The term Muslim world has to go too. There is only one world and we all live in it
6/3/2011 12:59 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The Quran says we were created to know each other....
6/3/2011 1:00 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: Wow, it has been an hour already. This was wonderful
6/3/2011 1:00 pm (et) Moderator: Hengist said: When we truly know each other, we are closer to knowing God.
6/3/2011 1:00 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: it is our true nature. ....Good
6/3/2011 1:01 pm (et) Johari Abdul Malik: The meaning of Islam is to be at peace with that true self...
6/3/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: Thank you for your participation today. If you would like to reach our speaker please contact me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org. Next week we will be taking a break due to some extenuating circumstances, but we will return the following week, June 17, to hear Rev. Clark Lobenstine, Executive Director of IFC, on “How to Dialogue.”
6/3/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: Also, this is a new effort on our part so we welcome your feedback! Any comments will be helpful. If you have any suggestion please feel free to email me at rebeccac@ifcmw.org.
6/3/2011 1:02 pm (et) Moderator: If you are interested in finding out more about our organization please feel free to browse our website: www.ifcmw.org and sign up for our bi-monthly e-newsletter by emailing me, again the address is rebeccac@ifcmw.org.